P-61 vs. He-219

[Siegfried]

The actual service configuration of the He 219 is hard to decode. It was underpowered because the 1900hp DB603G was not available. I believe this was because of C3 logistics issues rather than any serious technical issue. This engine keep showing up as part of the specification of German aircraft but AFAIKT it was either only used in prototype form or never at all.
This leaves the 1750hp DB603A or more likely the DB603AA which optimised high altitude performance at the expense of low. Even the use of the 1800hp DB603E seems very limited.

DB 603A, rated altitude of 5.7 km, B4 fuel
Power (max): 1287 kW (1750 PS) at 2700 rpm at sea level
Combat power: 1162 kW (1580 PS) at 2500 rpm at sea leve

DB 603AA DB 603A with rated altitude of 7.3 km, B4 fuel
Power (max): 1228 kW (1670 PS) at 2700 rpm at sea level
Combat power: 1162 kW (1580 PS) at 2500 rpm at sea level

Supposedly a He 219 with flame dampers, full radar and full gun packs only managed 311mph which makes the P-61 faster. Obviously the He 219 would gain speed with a better radar system that produced less drag.

Having said that, the Germans never had the chance to fit more powerfull versions of the DB603 engine for a variety of production and fuel logistics reasons. The supply of high octane fuel was limited due to competition between synthetic rubber production (iso-butylene common feedstock) and by the time the first of the new alkylation plants started production in 1943 they were compromised by the allied oil campaign of early 1944.

 

[Gixxerman]

The thing about the He 219 for me is that it looks the part having a certain look just appeals, it's got a certain slender grace to its lines.
The P 61 also has a certain look too, much more brutal to my eyes.

Anyways, as we all know looks can be very deceiving and aren't really much of a basis to decide about plane types.

I can't say as I know a lot about the P 61 but I do recall for many years (a long time ago) reading a lot of admiring and frankly pretty glowing reports about the He 219.
It was a long time before this incredible plane with all that claimed untapped portential I had read about got a little more real.
There's a famous report by Captain E.M. 'Winkle' Brown who test flew the 219 after the war and he said
"somewhat overrated......it suffered from hat is perhaps the nastiest characteristic that any twin engined aircraft can have: it was underpowered. This defect makes take-off a critical manoeuvre in the event of an engine failing, and landing with one engine out can be equally critical . There certainly could be no overshooting with the He 219 in that condition.
In fairness there are reports by German air crew who specifically state the He 219 was one of the few German twin engined types that could climb with one engine out.

But I can't help seeing the usual German tendancies with this one, a muddled objective, political interference intrigue and a design which suffers being increasingly loaded with demands which pile on the weight as the engines never quite get to that 2000hp+ class which the design requires.

I have to say though that it does seem another example of the usual German habit to disperse of effort and spray grossly limited resources around in a profilgate fashion.
Why put effort and resources into the He 219 at all when the Ju88G (esp the sub-type 6 7) types were better performers had greater potential as nf's, given their size load carrying abilities? particularly considering the scope for growth in the Ju88 design with the Ju188/Ju388.
Not forgetting that the jets are just around the corner too.

 

[davebender]

Because it might have been a top performer if RLM hadn't pulled the plug on the Jumo 222 engine program. Just as the He-100 and Fw-187 might have been top performers if RLM hadn't cut DB601 engine production in half during 1936. And the Do-217, Me-410 and Fw-190C might have been top performers if RLM hadn't cancelled funding for the DB603 engine program during 1937 to 1940.

I see this problem repeatedly when I look at WWII era German aircraft production. A promising German airframe design derailed by RLM cutting funding for the engine program. RLM also derailed the Me-210C light bomber and Ju-252 transport for no apparent reason at all as those programs had engines available.

Perhaps Goering should have spent less time collecting art and paid more attention to matching engine production with airframe production.

 

[GregP]

The He-219 A-5 was about a 360 mph aircraft when equipped with the radar and all the guns. Not all were forward-firing. The He-219 could get to about 400 mph when all excess weight was removed as well as the gondola with the 4 20mm cannons. With the gondola it could get to about 385 mph. They made about 300 He-219's. Climbed about 1,800 feet per minute.

The P-61 made about 366 mph, faster than the night-fighter fiull-up He-219, and was a very good match for afully-armed He-219. No P-61's were lost to enemy aircraft, though some were lost to AA and evena friendly Mosquito. The P-61 packed about 80% to 85% of the He-219 firepower, which was enough to destroy any target in the impact zome, regardless of aircraft size or armor. They made about 742 P-61's. Cimbed about 2,500 feet per minute.

I'd take 742 P-61's any day over 300 He-219's. If 19 mph of speed was important, then the He-219 had a slight edge. If not, I'd take the maneuverability and climb rate of the P-61 any day. Nothing particularly wrong with either aircraft, and teh he=219 was a good one. But so was the P-61, and I'll take it most days over the He-219, expecially considering the reputation of the P-61's engines.

 

[Denniss]

A Heinkel chart give the following speed with flame damper and radar antenna at 30 minute engine rating:
A-2 with DB603A: 560 km/h in 6.3 km
A-5 with DB 603E: 585 km/h in 8.3km

Without flame damper and antenna speed is given as 605/615 km/h in 6.4/8.4 km

Data is from May 1944, it's not given whether the A-2 data was flown/flight-tested or calculated.

 

[wuzak]

The P-61 made about 366 mph, faster than the night-fighter fiull-up He-219, and was a very good match for afully-armed He-219. No P-61's were lost to enemy aircraft, though some were lost to AA and evena friendly Mosquito.

Still slower than NF Mossies.

I dare say the reasons for no losses to enemy aircraft is due to when, where and how they were operated.

 

[fastmongrel]

Obviously well matched aircraft but for me personally they are battling it out for 3rd place behind the two kings of the night skies the JU 88 and the Mosquito. The 88 and the Mossie are equal 1st though they both had different strengths. As a pure bomber killer it has to be the 88 and as a fighter the Mossie, if it was my fantasy airforce I would have both.

 

[Shortround6]

A night fighter needs three things. Good performance, good armament and good radar. The P-61's radar had more capability than the German radar.

 

[davebender]

I agree. And maybe not even 3rd place.

The P-61 didn't enter combat until 1944. By then Germany was producing 1,800hp DB605 AS engines. One could argue a Me-110 night fighter powered by DB605 AS engines would be superior to both the P-61 and He-219.

 

[cimmex]

A night fighter needs three things. Good performance, good armament and good radar. The P-61's radar had more capability than the German radar.

Better radar, why? Do you have more details?
Thanks in advance
Regards
cimmex

 

[Erich]

the Allied AI Cento radar supposedly. the poor thing as called "bent weapon" had it's probs with the 422nd and 425th nfs by looking through their war diaries. actually there was probably 3 Widows shot down by LW NF's, one of them by the tail gunner of a He 177 the Widow pilot got a bit too close to ID the craft, they made it back to base cracked up and the Widow was written off.
The He 219 A-0 and A-2 which were used till wars end were liked by the I./NJG 1 especially since the only other craft was the Bf 110G-4 of NJG 1's gruppen. NJG 3 was able to test even the latest A-7's and were not fitting to NJG 3's liking so they stayed with the well proven Ju 88G-6's which could handle the latest radar gadgets.

 

[GregP]

I thought the thread was P-61 vs. He-219. Where did the Mosquito and Ju-88 come in?

Just to set the record straight, I never said the P-61 was the best night fighter. I said I'd rather have 700+ P-61's than 300 He-219's.

 

[Vincenzo]

afaik the P-61 was 656* (w/o F-15 and with prototypes and experimentals) ever much more of He 219 also if we count that P-61 production run after the Germany occupation


edit *this maybe 646

 

[Shortround6]

I agree. And maybe not even 3rd place.

The P-61 didn't enter combat until 1944. By then Germany was producing 1,800hp DB605 AS engines. One could argue a Me-110 night fighter powered by DB605 AS engines would be superior to both the P-61 and He-219.

Ah, yes, the DB605 miracle motors. They were good engines for single seat day fighters, not so good for night fighters or heavy aircraft. The high power ratings were good for limited times weren't they? The 30min rating did not increase in proportion to the max rating. In fact on some of the 1800hp engines the power at 2600 rpm was actually slightly lower than the power available from the 1475hp DB605A at the same 2600 rpm wasn't it? The engines in the P-61 did not have a 30 minute rating. They had a 15 minute military rating, a 5 min WER and a 'normal' or max continuous rating good for as long as the fuel lasted. This does make comparison difficult but the engines in the P -61 could give 1550hp at 21,500ft as long as the pilot wanted to burn fuel at that rate. The later DB605 engines were good for around 1200hp (or even 1150 HP) around that altitude for 30 minutes. In combat you do what you have to do but there is a reason the Germans didn't stick late model DB 605s into heavy aircraft despite the high nominal power and it has nothing to do with supply. The DB 603 and Jumo 213 had higher climb and continuous cruise power settings despite having peak power ratings close to the same as the late DB 605s.

 

[Shortround6]

Better radar, why? Do you have more details?
Thanks in advance
Regards
cimmex

Try this-- The Pacific War Online Encyclopedia: SCR-720 Airborne Radar

How well radar actually works as opposed to specifications is another story, but the radar in the P-61 could sweep 180 degrees in front of the plane and 20 degrees up and 50 degrees down. This is a mauch larger volume of sky than most other radars of the time. Ranges on radar depend on the target type, target aspect, Height of the radar plane and Height of the target plane. Without knowing at least the target type and heights comparisons of ranges between different radars are very suspect. Height is important because a plane with sky behind it stands out very well while a plane flying lower than than the radar plane can get lost in ground clutter, even if the plane is flying at 10,000ft and the radar plane at 15,000ft if the range is long enough.

 

[davebender]

I believe this specification is for the post-war SCR-720B radar. Not the SCR-720A radar installed during 1944 to 1945 in Mosquitoes and P-61s.

 

[Gixxerman]

Because it might have been a top performer if RLM hadn't pulled the plug on the Jumo 222 engine program.

Well fair enough Dave, a plane with potential.
I don't think anyone says different, and yes fair comment, a plane with even greater potential if they can make the leap to 2000hp+ class engines (which perhaps more importantly sustain high outputs at altitude......something I'm not convinced was ever proven to apply to the German supercharged 24 cylinder engines accepting they never got as far as they wanted with them....and that's before we get to late war fuel availability).

It's worth pointing out the other airforces also pondered over planes with potential too.....but none ever quite seem to indulge in actually producing the huge number of types and sub-types the Germans got themselves into.

So I still think it's fair comment.
They started making using the He219 when Jumo 222 was already in trouble and unlikely to happen anytime soon; and jets are just around the corner.
So why would anyone (with any grasp of resource logistics in a territory with severe resource issues) do that?
Why dilute the effort and resources that could have been otherwise applied to the nf versions of the Ju88?

I just find that sort of waste incredible, though obviously I'm glad they did.
As I've mentioned before without the bomb changing the game completely I do not see any way Germany can win WW2 (I guess the other exception might be push-over politicians caving in but by 1941 all those that might have done so either had already or turned out not to be the push-overs originally though), every other option - in my opinion - merely delays the inevitable defeat gives the meat-grinder longer to chew up countless young men women in uniform so many more civillians on all sides.
Including, possibly, additional members of my own family.

 

[davebender]

Why dilute the effort and resources that could have been otherwise applied to the nf versions of the Ju88?

The He-219 was designed during 1942, long before the outstanding Ju-88G appeared.

During 1942....
Ju-88C night fighter in production. Performance was rather low with Jumo 211 engines.
Me-110 program has ended in favor of the Me-210C.
RLM then cancelled the Me-210C program for no apparent reason.

That leaves 1942 Germany with no night fighter aircraft in production except the lackluster Ju-88C. Under the circumstances I can hardly blame Heinkel for attempting to sell their own night fighter design.

IMO the real problem is RLM cancellation of the Me-210C program during 1942. If that hadn't happened there would almost certainly have been a Me-210C night fighter variant.

 

[Erich]

the Me 210/410 does not have room for the NF electronics both nose and in the radio operators position for one.

now back to topic please P-61 vs He 219

 

[Siegfried]

the Me 210/410 does not have room for the NF electronics both nose and in the radio operators position for one.

now back to topic please P-61 vs He 219

I question that since some Me 410 were fitted with Hohtenweil radars, these had lobe switching for blind torpedo attacks and of course Me 109/FW190 both could carry light weight Neptune radars. I suspect the same kind of poliitically biased reporting used to condemn the He 219 was used to condemn the Me 410, more succesfully.

@Dave Bender.

AFAIKT the Jumo 222 was never totally cancelled. It was removed from the production programm but development continued albeit at a low priority. By wars end the orginal Jumo 222A3/B-3 looked like going back into production for the Ju 388 and 488 and a version with a two stage supercharger, the Jumo 222E/F was also approaching production.

AFAIKT Jumo 222 could have entered production in derated form in 41/42.