P-61 vs. He-219
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Erich
the old Sage
hmmmmm wonder if I should start this or not ?
nah let someone else go for it, I'll comment later. Both were not as hot shot as everyone thinks
nah let someone else go for it, I'll comment later. Both were not as hot shot as everyone thinks
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Erich, lets hear it.
Magister
Airman 1st Class
My vote goes to the Uhu.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
The drawback to the P61 was its not so high speed and it was quite heavy.
The good points were its phenominal maneuvering (thanks to the zap flaps) and fairly good radar.
The good points were its phenominal maneuvering (thanks to the zap flaps) and fairly good radar.
loomaluftwaffe
Tech Sergeant
- 1,840
- Dec 20, 2005
The Uhu wasnt equipped with that rear facing radar IFF 4 detecting mosquitoes. but shot them down, and i like axis aircraft, the P-61 wasnt as heavily armed and had lower performance, and u dont need manouverability during the night cos u wont get in a dogfight
Erich
the old Sage
let me correct you if I may. the He 219 A-2 was fitted with nearly half of the Uhu's with the Rückwart - rear facing radar for the FuG 220d set. I./NJG 1 reduced the overal armament to 4 2cm weapons. one in each inward wing and then 2 2cm in the lower fuselage weapons tray. It had been proven successfully already in the Bf 110G and especially the Luftwaffes most tired and true nf the Ju 88G-6. the Uhu was heavy like the P-61. the uhu's ejection seat system had drawbacks and the crew at times were blasted through the glass, besides the danger of having a cockpit forward of the twin main engines. the wing spars were weak but not so much as the failed Ta 154 Moskito crap.
don't worry there were plenty of dogifights between Ju 88's and bf 110G's and the nemisis Mosquiot nf's though short lived with either a victory or an escape.
more coming .......
don't worry there were plenty of dogifights between Ju 88's and bf 110G's and the nemisis Mosquiot nf's though short lived with either a victory or an escape.
more coming .......
syscom3
Pacific Historian
loomaluftwaffe said:
The P61 had four .50's and four 20mm cannons. Sometimes the turret was removed, but still, the four cannons was quite a bit.
In the PTO there were a few encounters between Japanese night intruders and P61's. The Japanese planes were always quite maneuverable and the P61's were able to disengage from the fight by using its zap flights to great advantage.
Erich
the old Sage
ya know we should go back to the old thread ~ archivs on the P-61 as I gave quite a bit of info on the bird and the recollections from veteran pilots/crews I have interviewed. I was fortunate to be a member of the US night fighter association before it's abandonment and I am going to cover the tactics and ops of the 9th AF squads in one of my books. the upper .50 cal turret was removed from all 9th AF machines. there were several encounters as well agasint GErman nf's although the bulk was against GErman bomber types. The 9th AF boys were not to keen on visua ID as at least two Allied a/c persihed under their guns. Some interesting findings with ops against Ju 87D's of NSGr 1 and 2 in 1945.
Between the 2 up there I go for the He-219. In my opinion it was the better of the 2 aircraft. Some He-219 varients had a whopping armament consisting of Two 30mm Mk 108 Cannon in wing roots.
Two 20mm MG 151/20 Cannon in belly tray.
Two 30mm Mk 103 Cannon in belly tray.
Two 30mm Mk 108 cannon in Shräge Musik mount.
Ammunition: 100 rounds per gun
The thing I dont like about the P-61 is the fact that it was heavy and quite big, but then agian so was the Ju-88.
Here is a comparison of the 2 aircraft:
He-219
Origin: Ernst Heinkel AG
Type: Night fighter
Models: He 219A-0 to A-7, B and C series
Crew: Two
First Flight: He 219V-1 November 15, 1942
Service Delivery:
Prototypes: November 15, 1942
He 219A-1: November 1943
Total Production: 268
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Powerplant:
He 219V-1:
Model: Daimler-Benz DB 603AS
Type: Inverted-vee-12 liquid-cooled
Number: Two Horsepower: 1,750 hp
Typical:
Model: Daimler-Benz DB 603G
Type: Inverted-vee-12 liquid-cooled
Number: Two Horsepower: 1,900 hp
He 219A-6:
Model: Daimler-Benz DB 603L
Type: Inverted-vee-12 liquid-cooled
Number: Two Horsepower: 1,750 hp
He 219A-7/R2:
Model: Daimler-Benz DB 603E Number: Two
Type: Inverted-vee-12 liquid-cooled
Horsepower:
1,800 hp at 2,700 rpm for takeoff.
1,900 hp at 5,905 ft. (1,800m).
1,550 hp at 22,965 ft. (7,000m).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dimensions: He 219A-7
Span: 60 ft. 8 in. (18.5m)
Length (With Aerials): 50 ft. 11¾ in. (15.54m)
Height: 13 ft. 5½ in. (4.1m)
Weights: He 219A-7
Empty: 24,692 lb (11,200 kg)
Loaded: 33,730 lb. (15,200 kg)
Performance: He 219A-7
Maximum speed: 416 mph (670km/h)
Initial climb: 1,804 ft (550m)/min
Service ceiling: 41,660 ft (12,700m)
Range: 1,243 miles (2,000km)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Armament:
He 219V-1
Two 20mm MG 151/20 Cannon in wing roots.
One 13mm MG 131 in rear cockpit.
He 219A-2/R1
Two 20mm MG 151/20 Cannon in wing roots.
Two or Four 20mm MG 151/20 Cannon in belly tray.
Two 30mm Mk 108 cannon in Shräge Musik mount.
He 219A-7/R1
Two 30mm Mk 108 Cannon in wing roots.
Two 20mm MG 151/20 Cannon in belly tray.
Two 30mm Mk 103 Cannon in belly tray.
Two 30mm Mk 108 cannon in Shräge Musik mount.
Ammunition: 100 rounds per gun
He 219A-7/R2
Two 30mm Mk 108 Cannon in wing roots.
Two 20mm MG 151/20 Cannon in belly tray.
Two 30mm Mk 108 Cannon in belly tray.
Two 30mm Mk 108 cannon in Shräge Musik mount.
Ammunition: 100 rounds per gun
P-61 Black Widow
GENERAL INFORMATION:
Type:
P-61: Three-seat Night Fighter
F-15: Two-seat strategic reconaissance
Manufacturer: Northrop
Models: P-61A thru C, F-15 (RF-61C) Reporter
First Flight: May 21, 1942 (XP-61)
Service Delivery:
May 1944 (P-61A)
1946 (F-15A)
Final Delivery: N/A
Total Produced: 941 (plus 35 photo-recon versions)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
POWERPLANT:
Model: Pratt Whitney R-2800 Double Wasp
Type: 18-Cyl 2-Row Radials
Horsepower (P-61A): 2,000hp R-2800-10
Horsepower (P-61B): 2,000hp R-2800-65
Horsepower (P-61C and F-15): 2,800hp R-2800-73
FUEL:
Capacity: N/A
Type: N/A
DIMENSIONS:
Wing span: 20.12m (66 ft.)
Length (P-61A): 14.92m (48 ft. 11 in.)
Length (P-61B C): 15.1m (49 ft. 7 in.)
Length (F-15): 15.3m (50 ft. 3 in.)
Height: 4.49m (14 ft. 8 in.)
Wing Surface Area: N/A
WEIGHTS:
Empty (Typical P-61): 10,886kg (24,000 lbs.)
Empty (F-15): 9,979kg (22,000 lbs.)
Maximum, Loaded (P-61A): 14,696kg (32,400 lbs.)
Maximum, Loaded (P-61B): 17,237kg (38,000 lbs.)
Maximum, Loaded (P-61C): 18,280kg (40,300 lbs.)
Maximum, Clean (F-15): 12,700kg (28,000 lbs.)
PERFORMANCE:
Maximum Speed (P-61A B): 366 mph (590 km/h)
Maximum Speed (P-61C): 430 mph (692 km/h)
Maximum Speed (F-15): 440 mph (708 km/h)
Initial climb (P-61A B): 2,200 ft. (670 m) per minute
Initial climb (P-61C F-15): 3,000 ft. (914 m) per minute
Service Ceiling (P-61A B): 33,000 ft. (10,060 m)
Service Ceiling (P-61C F-15): 41,000 ft. (12,500 m)
Range - Max. Fuel (P-61A): 500 Miles (2360 km)
Range - Max. Fuel (P-61B C): 2,800 Miles (4500 km)
Range - Max. Fuel (F-15): 4,000 Miles (6440 km)
ARMAMENTS:
Four 20mm M-2 Cannon in belly, fixed forward.
Plus
Electric Dorsal turret with four .50 machine guns, remotely controlled
from front or rear sight station and fired by pilot.
(in first 37 A's, last 250 B's and all C's)
Plus (B C Only)
Wing racks for 6,400 lb. ordnance load.
F-15 carried no armament.
For the most part, there performance was equal however the the He-219 had better armament. Between the 2 I go for the He-219 based off performance, looks, and design and the fact that Luftwaffe Night Fighter tactics generally were better.
Now having said that I think the Ju-88 was a much better night fighter than both of those combined.
Two 20mm MG 151/20 Cannon in belly tray.
Two 30mm Mk 103 Cannon in belly tray.
Two 30mm Mk 108 cannon in Shräge Musik mount.
Ammunition: 100 rounds per gun
The thing I dont like about the P-61 is the fact that it was heavy and quite big, but then agian so was the Ju-88.
Here is a comparison of the 2 aircraft:
He-219
Origin: Ernst Heinkel AG
Type: Night fighter
Models: He 219A-0 to A-7, B and C series
Crew: Two
First Flight: He 219V-1 November 15, 1942
Service Delivery:
Prototypes: November 15, 1942
He 219A-1: November 1943
Total Production: 268
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Powerplant:
He 219V-1:
Model: Daimler-Benz DB 603AS
Type: Inverted-vee-12 liquid-cooled
Number: Two Horsepower: 1,750 hp
Typical:
Model: Daimler-Benz DB 603G
Type: Inverted-vee-12 liquid-cooled
Number: Two Horsepower: 1,900 hp
He 219A-6:
Model: Daimler-Benz DB 603L
Type: Inverted-vee-12 liquid-cooled
Number: Two Horsepower: 1,750 hp
He 219A-7/R2:
Model: Daimler-Benz DB 603E Number: Two
Type: Inverted-vee-12 liquid-cooled
Horsepower:
1,800 hp at 2,700 rpm for takeoff.
1,900 hp at 5,905 ft. (1,800m).
1,550 hp at 22,965 ft. (7,000m).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dimensions: He 219A-7
Span: 60 ft. 8 in. (18.5m)
Length (With Aerials): 50 ft. 11¾ in. (15.54m)
Height: 13 ft. 5½ in. (4.1m)
Weights: He 219A-7
Empty: 24,692 lb (11,200 kg)
Loaded: 33,730 lb. (15,200 kg)
Performance: He 219A-7
Maximum speed: 416 mph (670km/h)
Initial climb: 1,804 ft (550m)/min
Service ceiling: 41,660 ft (12,700m)
Range: 1,243 miles (2,000km)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Armament:
He 219V-1
Two 20mm MG 151/20 Cannon in wing roots.
One 13mm MG 131 in rear cockpit.
He 219A-2/R1
Two 20mm MG 151/20 Cannon in wing roots.
Two or Four 20mm MG 151/20 Cannon in belly tray.
Two 30mm Mk 108 cannon in Shräge Musik mount.
He 219A-7/R1
Two 30mm Mk 108 Cannon in wing roots.
Two 20mm MG 151/20 Cannon in belly tray.
Two 30mm Mk 103 Cannon in belly tray.
Two 30mm Mk 108 cannon in Shräge Musik mount.
Ammunition: 100 rounds per gun
He 219A-7/R2
Two 30mm Mk 108 Cannon in wing roots.
Two 20mm MG 151/20 Cannon in belly tray.
Two 30mm Mk 108 Cannon in belly tray.
Two 30mm Mk 108 cannon in Shräge Musik mount.
Ammunition: 100 rounds per gun
P-61 Black Widow
GENERAL INFORMATION:
Type:
P-61: Three-seat Night Fighter
F-15: Two-seat strategic reconaissance
Manufacturer: Northrop
Models: P-61A thru C, F-15 (RF-61C) Reporter
First Flight: May 21, 1942 (XP-61)
Service Delivery:
May 1944 (P-61A)
1946 (F-15A)
Final Delivery: N/A
Total Produced: 941 (plus 35 photo-recon versions)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
POWERPLANT:
Model: Pratt Whitney R-2800 Double Wasp
Type: 18-Cyl 2-Row Radials
Horsepower (P-61A): 2,000hp R-2800-10
Horsepower (P-61B): 2,000hp R-2800-65
Horsepower (P-61C and F-15): 2,800hp R-2800-73
FUEL:
Capacity: N/A
Type: N/A
DIMENSIONS:
Wing span: 20.12m (66 ft.)
Length (P-61A): 14.92m (48 ft. 11 in.)
Length (P-61B C): 15.1m (49 ft. 7 in.)
Length (F-15): 15.3m (50 ft. 3 in.)
Height: 4.49m (14 ft. 8 in.)
Wing Surface Area: N/A
WEIGHTS:
Empty (Typical P-61): 10,886kg (24,000 lbs.)
Empty (F-15): 9,979kg (22,000 lbs.)
Maximum, Loaded (P-61A): 14,696kg (32,400 lbs.)
Maximum, Loaded (P-61B): 17,237kg (38,000 lbs.)
Maximum, Loaded (P-61C): 18,280kg (40,300 lbs.)
Maximum, Clean (F-15): 12,700kg (28,000 lbs.)
PERFORMANCE:
Maximum Speed (P-61A B): 366 mph (590 km/h)
Maximum Speed (P-61C): 430 mph (692 km/h)
Maximum Speed (F-15): 440 mph (708 km/h)
Initial climb (P-61A B): 2,200 ft. (670 m) per minute
Initial climb (P-61C F-15): 3,000 ft. (914 m) per minute
Service Ceiling (P-61A B): 33,000 ft. (10,060 m)
Service Ceiling (P-61C F-15): 41,000 ft. (12,500 m)
Range - Max. Fuel (P-61A): 500 Miles (2360 km)
Range - Max. Fuel (P-61B C): 2,800 Miles (4500 km)
Range - Max. Fuel (F-15): 4,000 Miles (6440 km)
ARMAMENTS:
Four 20mm M-2 Cannon in belly, fixed forward.
Plus
Electric Dorsal turret with four .50 machine guns, remotely controlled
from front or rear sight station and fired by pilot.
(in first 37 A's, last 250 B's and all C's)
Plus (B C Only)
Wing racks for 6,400 lb. ordnance load.
F-15 carried no armament.
For the most part, there performance was equal however the the He-219 had better armament. Between the 2 I go for the He-219 based off performance, looks, and design and the fact that Luftwaffe Night Fighter tactics generally were better.
Now having said that I think the Ju-88 was a much better night fighter than both of those combined.
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Bout time u came out and admitted the truth...
Yeah it was a long post was it not. 
syscom3
Pacific Historian
I will have to agree that the He-219 was the better of the two.
But I dont know about the tactics. The Luftwaffee had their night fighter tactics to combat the allied threat, and the allies had their night fighter tactics to combat the German threat.
But I dont know about the tactics. The Luftwaffee had their night fighter tactics to combat the allied threat, and the allies had their night fighter tactics to combat the German threat.
That is true, but the Luftwaffe had developed those tactics over a longer period of time and had tactics to deal with the allied threat of bombers and fighters and the enemy night fighters.
Erich
the old Sage
not sure if one was better than the other, the P-61 with the 9th AF in the ETO seemed to have missions at mid-altitiude while the Uhu went after high ranging RAF heavies and the occasional Mossie in 43.
of note for all of you :
the operational Uhu's in I./NJG 1 only were the A-0 and the A-2 and A-5. there was never an A-6 anti-mossie model nor A-7 produced for operations, they were all experiments and enver saw action. Armament in 44-45 was reduced in nearly all cases to wing mounted 2cm's and belly tray of two 2cm weapons and 3cm SM installation was not always fitted nor a Rückswart (rear warning radar) which was to be the scourge of many a Uhu crew due to Mossie shootdowns, one of the prime reasons the Ju 88G losses in relationship to Mossie intruders dropped off. Bf 110G's still did not have rear warning radar as standard even by wars end.
of note for all of you :
the operational Uhu's in I./NJG 1 only were the A-0 and the A-2 and A-5. there was never an A-6 anti-mossie model nor A-7 produced for operations, they were all experiments and enver saw action. Armament in 44-45 was reduced in nearly all cases to wing mounted 2cm's and belly tray of two 2cm weapons and 3cm SM installation was not always fitted nor a Rückswart (rear warning radar) which was to be the scourge of many a Uhu crew due to Mossie shootdowns, one of the prime reasons the Ju 88G losses in relationship to Mossie intruders dropped off. Bf 110G's still did not have rear warning radar as standard even by wars end.
Erich said:
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Erich, any information on which was better of the two radars?
The US SCR-720 or the one carried on the He219?
The US SCR-720 or the one carried on the He219?
Erich
the old Sage
depends on the year. the FuG 220D set with angled diploes was jammed by the RAF, especially 100th group, the AI of the P-61's was not jammed but did fail under interesting circumstances, usally a short circuit but weather also had alot to play on the device. interesting too that tracking the Ju 87D's at night, if the German craft would bank and drop to vertical and angle out the German craft would be lost, and it wasn't just the Stuka they had problems with.
slightly Ot but at least in the Ju 88G-6 when the FuG 220d was jammed the German crews went over to the Naxos 350zc and were able to pick up RAF bombers even individually. Really funny about the quotes stating that the He 219A had the most advanced radar/electronic systems available but it was not the case, the Ju 88G-6 did since for an obvious reason(s) it could carry 4 crewmemembers and have the room in not so quite a cramped cockpit. It wa also the only one to carry late war I.R. technology besdies the ground to air tele-type printer not jammed by the RAF
slightly Ot but at least in the Ju 88G-6 when the FuG 220d was jammed the German crews went over to the Naxos 350zc and were able to pick up RAF bombers even individually. Really funny about the quotes stating that the He 219A had the most advanced radar/electronic systems available but it was not the case, the Ju 88G-6 did since for an obvious reason(s) it could carry 4 crewmemembers and have the room in not so quite a cramped cockpit. It wa also the only one to carry late war I.R. technology besdies the ground to air tele-type printer not jammed by the RAF
So basically the Ju-88 had a backup for its radar in that sense?
Erich
the old Sage
yes even Flensburg had been jammed earlier it seemed to work quite well in the spring of 45, and some crews had both this and naxos together. the radar operator would actually focus in on where the jamming was worse with the aluminum stirps of window and on 9 out of 10 cases the German crews would find the bombers. the biggest problem in the jamming modes was as I mentioned in the Mosievs Ju 88 thread in early 45 with so much jamming and rearranging of where the German nf force showuld go to intercept.
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