P-61 vs. He-219

[GregP]

Never said it was. I said fighters were designed to be optimal, so their "other factors" were also about optinized ... and very simlar.

 

[Grampa]

All that talk about whitch plane who have best maneuverability, speed and firepover, it still cant be the most importent thing if you cant find the enemy in the dark. Remember the one who make the first strike will have the greatest chance to be a whinner in nightcombat, so dosent that mean the better detectionequipmet and warningsystem the plane have the better chance the pilots will survive a nightcombat? So whouldent the radartecnology on those plane have be an importent factor that we forgetting to discuss about? so how good where the radarsystem and other equipment the He 219 and P 61 used in comparelse?

Men from Rad Lab say's "The atomic bomb ended the war, radar won it".

 

[Gixxerman]

wouldn't the radar tecnology on those plane have be an importent factor that we forgetting to discuss about? so how good where the radarsystem and other equipment the He 219 and P 61 used in comparelse?

I agree.
The radar war is one of the fascinating aspects to the war.
Clearly Germany fell behind (although unlike popular conventional wisdom - here in the UK at least - this was after them initially having the best radar sets, especially their naval stuff). Their abandoning centemetric radar (thinking it too costly too challenging to achieve within a reasonable timeframe, I believe) had a major impact.

.....and it was not just in the air either, their not having centemetric radar detecting equipment led to catastrophic U-boat losses in the battle of the Atlantic, just at the wrong time for them given the timing of the D-day build-up.

 

[Erich]

and to include pilot experience which the LW had much of. Lw radar was not on par with the US or British though looking through the ETO squadrons flying with the P-61 am not impressed by reading through their histories with the performance with the AI as it seemed to fail increasingly from it's first inception in July of 44 till wars end. Still with the LW using only the late marks of VI FuG 220d sets in the Uhu and the silly antlers this was not going to give the big A/C much in the way of aerodynamics

 

[Milosh]

and to include pilot experience which the LW had much of. Lw radar was not on par with the US or British though looking through the ETO squadrons flying with the P-61 am not impressed by reading through their histories with the performance with the AI as it seemed to fail increasingly from it's first inception in July of 44 till wars end. Still with the LW using only the late marks of VI FuG 220d sets in the Uhu and the silly antlers this was not going to give the big A/C much in the way of aerodynamics

Did the Mossie have the same problems when using the same radar as the P-61?

 

[Oreo]

Yes, radar capability and radar operator capability may well have been the most critical factor. Sometimes I think some of us just take for granted that if you have a radar equipped night fighter, you can find your enemy bomber and shoot it down. Not as easy as it sounds.

 

[Shortround6]

The Pacific War Online Encyclopedia: SCR-720 Airborne Radar

US Night Fighter Radars of WWII

Please note the search limits of the radar side to side and up and down, this radar had one of the largest ( if not the largest) search "areas" of any WW II air to air radars. The longer range numbers are more than a bit on the optimistic side however

 

[Erich]

sorry gents for not getting back to ya all, the cancer treatments.....messing with my head

the P-61 AI in the ETO was found to be quite sensitive to low flying and land clutter and just plain electrical failure(s), not having the BC Mossie personal reports I would gather similar stories would of developed although the Mossies in this case probably stayed in the higher realm of altitude than the US P-61 squadrons as many times they broke away nd performed intruder ground attack duties.

 

[krieghund]

The He-219 A-5 was about a 360 mph aircraft when equipped with the radar and all the guns. Not all were forward-firing. The He-219 could get to about 400 mph when all excess weight was removed as well as the gondola with the 4 20mm cannons. With the gondola it could get to about 385 mph. They made about 300 He-219's. Climbed about 1,800 feet per minute.

The P-61 made about 366 mph, faster than the night-fighter fiull-up He-219, and was a very good match for afully-armed He-219. No P-61's were lost to enemy aircraft, though some were lost to AA and evena friendly Mosquito. The P-61 packed about 80% to 85% of the He-219 firepower, which was enough to destroy any target in the impact zome, regardless of aircraft size or armor. They made about 742 P-61's. Cimbed about 2,500 feet per minute.

I'd take 742 P-61's any day over 300 He-219's. If 19 mph of speed was important, then the He-219 had a slight edge. If not, I'd take the maneuverability and climb rate of the P-61 any day. Nothing particularly wrong with either aircraft, and teh he=219 was a good one. But so was the P-61, and I'll take it most days over the He-219, expecially considering the reputation of the P-61's engines.

Here's some charts I came across on the He219 with different engines/power settings and the speed/climb chart the P-61;

 

[davparlr]

The P-61 had highly specialized control surfaces including "spoilerons" (IIRC that is the name of them), a type of control surface fitted to few if any other aircraft, to the best of my knowledge.

The B-52 and many, if not all, Boeing jet airliners use the concept.

 

[razor1uk]

The North American A-5/RA-5 Vigilante also used 'Spoilerons' (their last successfull design before they got merged out to oblivion) AFAIK too...

 

[hurricane55]

Both aircraft are good, but I think the P-61 has a distinct advantage in that it has radar, being able to pounce on an enemy aircraft in the dead of night before it detects the Black Widow. However, the 219 was the only German plane that could squarely match a de Havilland Mosquito and have a high chance of downing it, and was very effective as a bomber interceptor, as well as a higher top speed and a 350 mile longer range than the P-61.
In conclusion, both aircraft are very evenly matched, but I think the P-61 reigns supreme.

 

[Erich]

actually the Bf 109G-6/AS had a better performing record than the He 219 in popping a Mossie, don't forget the He 219 also had radar. high speed in chasing the BC 4-engines is not that major of a role player, the slow funky Bf 110G-4 had a high attrition rate of Allied bombers to it's credit even with outdated and ill performing radar systems. the Widow was a good heavy weapons platform which most likely made it the best war ground intruder of any nation, but as a high performance high altitude night fighter..................... no............

 

[Shortround6]

the Widow was a good heavy weapons platform which most likely made it the best war ground intruder of any nation, but as a high performance high altitude night fighter..................... no............

According to the USAAF '46 website (coming soon to an internet near you) at the end of the war in Europe the P-61C was just weeks away from going into mass production and would have solved ALL of the Black Widows performance problems.

 

[Erich]

but it was not operational during the war and that is the point of thread I believe. and what of the He 219 had it been developed further in 46 ? no clue

 

[Shortround6]

Please, Erich, is was an attempt at a joke.

Hope you are feeling a bit better at the moment.

 

[bobbysocks]

Slats can help a lot with maintaining aileron effectiveness at low speeds. Their help in maneuvering (turning) is a lot more suspect. By the time the slots are allowing the wing to generate more lift by keeping it from stalling at a higher than normal angle of attack the drag is skyrocketing.

Slats can lower stalling/landing speeds and perhaps more importantly can maintain the already mentioned aileron control at both landing speeds ( preventing accidents) and at higher speeds in turns maintaining controllability.

i just happend to have read a report about slats in the last week or so. it was a comparison of brit planes and 109s with slats. it was a brit report...to them the greatest advantage of the slats was when they deployed the pilot knew how close to stalling he was. he could be pre-occupied with a target or looking behind him...but he knew when the slats deployed..he didnt have to look. the spit mk 1 pilots could turn as well or maybe even better than the 109s but wouldnt for fear of stalling and spinning then becoming a sitting duck.