Did I give an exact date that the P.1101 was going to test fly? Nope sure did not. However it was closer to test flight than the Ta-183 and the Ta-183 was scheduled to fly May/June 1945.
p-80 V Me 262
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Did I give an exact date that the P.1101 was going to test fly? Nope sure did not. However it was closer to test flight than the Ta-183 and the Ta-183 was scheduled to fly May/June 1945.
JG57_Rall
Airman
What if the F-14 and the Me-262 squared off. Its silly since there were no F-14s in the air during WWII. The Luftwaffe had the Me-262 operational and it was being improved on when the war came to an end. Any allied development of jet fighters would have been behind the development of German jets and the pilots that flew the new allied aircraft would not have had the experience that the German jet pilots had. These what if questions can be interesting but they are no different than saying which is better a Klingon Battle Crusier or a Goa'uld Ha'tak
Morai_Milo
Banned
- 43
- Jan 22, 2007
No you didn't but you did say: "ready for test flights" which I read as completed > just add gas and a pilot.
The P1101 was nowhere near ready but for sure a lot closer than the Ta183. A flight capable engine being a main reason.
Strange that you say the Ta183 was to be ready for test flights in May/June 1945 when by April 1945 all the plants capable of making it had been over-run and only the detailed drawings had been completed with airframe construction not even started. (from what I can find) Bit hard to believe from paper to finished product in ~4-8 weeks.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
That is pretty silly.........
Well, I read a book 'Jagd Pilot' or something , by the guy who first flew the Me-163 successfully..(an earlier pilot had tried and died)
a great book BTW..
He said the Me262 had two engines, for reliability..
Unfortunately, it would not fly on only one engine.
So the odds of an catastrophic engine failure was doubled..
Major bummer..
So even if the engines were equal in reliability
The odds of a failure were against the 262
a great book BTW..
He said the Me262 had two engines, for reliability..
Unfortunately, it would not fly on only one engine.
So the odds of an catastrophic engine failure was doubled..
Major bummer..
So even if the engines were equal in reliability
The odds of a failure were against the 262
syscom3
Pacific Historian
I dont know if the 262 would have been better in a dogfight, as compared to the P80.
Those two big engines pods slung under the wings would inhibit its instantaneous roll rate.
The 262 was an interceptor, the P80 a dogfighter. Two different beasts for two different requirements.
GregP
Major
We could "what if" this forever.
Simple fact is thet never fought, so we DON'T know. I'd say the P-80 had the performance edge, but only very slightly.
In these cases, the real winner is usually decided by the pilot skill. The Germans had their best in the jets, and if the U.S.A. had sent jets (I know about the 2 P-80s sent to Italy - no combat), we'd have had our best in them, too.
So ... I'd say that they would have been pretty damned equal with pilots making the difference.
You, of course, are fre to disagree ...
Simple fact is thet never fought, so we DON'T know. I'd say the P-80 had the performance edge, but only very slightly.
In these cases, the real winner is usually decided by the pilot skill. The Germans had their best in the jets, and if the U.S.A. had sent jets (I know about the 2 P-80s sent to Italy - no combat), we'd have had our best in them, too.
So ... I'd say that they would have been pretty damned equal with pilots making the difference.
You, of course, are fre to disagree ...
After the war some 262's went to Muroc and were flown by Chuck Yeager and others. He said in his book that he felt the P-80 and 262 handled about the same with no appreciable advantages to either taking into account he only had a few hours left on his 262 engine's TBO.
I agree it would come down to pilot skill.
I agree it would come down to pilot skill.
Parmigiano
Senior Airman
To be precise: the 2 P80 shipped to Italy were based in the deep south, not in the north (Lesina being roughly on the 'heel' of Italy 'boot')
Being the front 400+ miles north and being several US airports available closer to front , it does not look like the USAAF was planning to dogfight with other jets, the P80 location made impossible for them to reach Germany and barely in range to shortly patrol the area where the 3 Arado 234 were flying their recce.
Probably the P80 in Italy were just deployed to test the field logistics for a jet aircraft, not with the intention to mix up with Luftwaffe.
Being the front 400+ miles north and being several US airports available closer to front , it does not look like the USAAF was planning to dogfight with other jets, the P80 location made impossible for them to reach Germany and barely in range to shortly patrol the area where the 3 Arado 234 were flying their recce.
Probably the P80 in Italy were just deployed to test the field logistics for a jet aircraft, not with the intention to mix up with Luftwaffe.
I think the p-80 had a little preformance advantage over the 262. The 2 engines of the 262 must have affected the roll rate and turn radius etc. The mk 108 was also pretty slow firing, and I think this is pretty crucial in a dog fight were planes go from one side to another in a split second.
On the other hand, the germans had allready used the 262 for 3/4 of a year when the first 2 p-80 came to europe, so german jet pilots had practised. They knew the strenghts and weaknesses of their jets in combat. The americans still had to learn this.
So I think that the first dogfights would have been won by the 262, but its pure guessing work.
Tom
On the other hand, the germans had allready used the 262 for 3/4 of a year when the first 2 p-80 came to europe, so german jet pilots had practised. They knew the strenghts and weaknesses of their jets in combat. The americans still had to learn this.
So I think that the first dogfights would have been won by the 262, but its pure guessing work.
Tom
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
The P-80 weight 1,000 pounds less than the -262. That will effect maneuvability and acceleration. I still believe the p-80 "would of" been more maneuverable than the -262.
Would of, could of , should of - of course we're all guessing.
Would of, could of , should of - of course we're all guessing.
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Lemme get my wonderful, all seeing crystal ball out...
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Are you serious?
Every source on the matter will say that the aircraft was scheduled for a test flight in May/June 1945 time frame. I will leave it at that because I dont think there is anything that I can say that you will dispute unless it is about Luftwaffe Sucks!
Thats okay Morai will get his too...
Morai_Milo
Banned
- 43
- Jan 22, 2007
Yup and when I do I will own up and admit I was in error.
What are these 'every source'? So every source says the 'dream world' test flight was for May/June 1945? Reality is different from the 'dream world'.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
"On February 28, 1945, the Luftwaffe High Command examined the various Emergency Fighter proposals and selected the Ta 183 to be developed and produced. Sixteen prototypes were to be built, allowing the tail unit to be interchanged between the Design II and III variations. Of the Versuchs (experimental test series) aircraft the Ta 183 V1-V3 were to be powered by the Jumo 004B turbojet, pending delivery of the He S 011 jet engine. The Ta 183 V4-V14 were 0-series preproduction aircraft and V15-V16 were to be static test aircraft. The first flight of the aircraft was projected for May 1945 but none were completed by April 8, 1945, when British troops captured the Focke-Wulf facilities."
Focke-Wulf Ta 183 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Focke Wulfe Fw Ta-183
Focke-Wulf Ta 183 Luft '46 entry
"On Febuary 27 and 28, 1945, the Emergency Fighter Competition conference was held by the OKL (High Command of the Luftwaffe), and the Ta 183 was chosen to be developed and produced. There were to be sixteen Versuchs (experimental test series) aircraft: the Ta 183 V1-V3 to be powered by the Jumo 004B turbojet, pending delivery of the He S 011 jet engine, the Ta 183 V4-V14 as 0-series preproduction aircraft and V15-V16 as static test aircraft. The maiden flight of the first aircraft was planned for May/June of 1945, and was to test both the Design II and Design III tail configuration. The first production aircraft were scheduled to be completed by October 1945, but no examples of the Ta 183 were completed because on April 8, 1945 British troops captured the Focke-Wulf facilities."
Focke-Wulf Ta 183 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Focke Wulfe Fw Ta-183
Focke-Wulf Ta 183 Luft '46 entry
"On Febuary 27 and 28, 1945, the Emergency Fighter Competition conference was held by the OKL (High Command of the Luftwaffe), and the Ta 183 was chosen to be developed and produced. There were to be sixteen Versuchs (experimental test series) aircraft: the Ta 183 V1-V3 to be powered by the Jumo 004B turbojet, pending delivery of the He S 011 jet engine, the Ta 183 V4-V14 as 0-series preproduction aircraft and V15-V16 as static test aircraft. The maiden flight of the first aircraft was planned for May/June of 1945, and was to test both the Design II and Design III tail configuration. The first production aircraft were scheduled to be completed by October 1945, but no examples of the Ta 183 were completed because on April 8, 1945 British troops captured the Focke-Wulf facilities."
Yup and when I do I will own up and admit I was in error.
As do I...
The difference is I dont pretend to be the all knowing source.
Morai_Milo said:
Did you just figure that out?
