Civettone
Tech Sergeant
Jackson, the Me 163 was intended to intercept reconaissance aircraft. And later to intercept the B-29.
Kris
Kris
p-80 V Me 262
- Thread starter MAV_406
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syscom3
Pacific Historian
I have a feeling this will be your last post.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Again we could all bare witness to the diminishing gene pool, probably due to inbreeding and perhaps there are some coon and sheep DNA somewhere in the equation. Anyway this dipsh*t moron is no longer with us as it is apparent he doesn't have a life, a brain and probably suffers from male hormone inadequacies.
Good-bye dipsh*t, hope you have a great life as a toilet cake changer!
syscom3
Pacific Historian
The mission of the -262 was too shoot down US bombers, thus the comparison between the P80 and the -262 should be up at altitudes above 20,000 ft.
Does anyone know if the endurance times for the P80 was on internal fuel, or was it with a pair of drop tanks?
Does anyone know if the endurance times for the P80 was on internal fuel, or was it with a pair of drop tanks?
Yes, I checked , you are right..
But actual production funding and the first missions were another matter, given the later priorities.
I have seen so many different figures that I am not sure what is correct and what is not.
A book that I have here at home says that the was as follows:
P-80
Internal: 825 mi
With drop tanks: 1200 mi
What kind of upgrades do you think the -262 would have received if Germany had stayed in the war? The Jumo engines were already mentioned, perhaps changing out the 30mm's to 20's, etc? I have a feeling that given the time the bird would have evolved into a far more capable machine that no one could hope to match, not without reverse engineering or something like that. Certainly would give the shooting stars something to think about in 1946.
Having had time to fix the bugs as well and yes it would have evolved into a better machine, but I think the future lied in the Ta-183 and the P.1101.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
You forget about the vast US and UK resources available to quickly design and build jet aircraft and engines.
Any leads the Germans had in this area (in 1945) were going to be short lived.
A clarification:
The Me 262 was not designed for the purpose of dealing with a specific type of enemy plane. It was designed pretty much with the idea of dealing with any flying thing the enemy had it his disposal.
This comparison is interesting of course, several well grounded opinions around here, the fact yet remains only the Germans, and only them proved capable of putting a jet plane into combat action.
I do not care if the bugs on the Me 262 were not yet entirely eliminated, neither the Brits with the hangar lady Gloster Meteor, nor the USAers with the P-80 could press their jets into effective combat action.
The Me 262 was not designed for the purpose of dealing with a specific type of enemy plane. It was designed pretty much with the idea of dealing with any flying thing the enemy had it his disposal.
This comparison is interesting of course, several well grounded opinions around here, the fact yet remains only the Germans, and only them proved capable of putting a jet plane into combat action.
I do not care if the bugs on the Me 262 were not yet entirely eliminated, neither the Brits with the hangar lady Gloster Meteor, nor the USAers with the P-80 could press their jets into effective combat action.
I disagree some what there.
For the British and the US it was not a matter of not being able to put jet fighters into combat in WW2.
The Meteor was ready for combat and did fly on missions. It just enver engaged and enemy aircraft. The P-80 had reliablity issues just as the Me-262 did as well, however if needed it would have flown in combat.
I think it is more of a safer bet to say the allies did not have a reason to rush a jet fighter into combat like the Germans did. The Me-262 was rushed into combat before she was ready.
For the British and the US it was not a matter of not being able to put jet fighters into combat in WW2.
The Meteor was ready for combat and did fly on missions. It just enver engaged and enemy aircraft. The P-80 had reliablity issues just as the Me-262 did as well, however if needed it would have flown in combat.
I think it is more of a safer bet to say the allies did not have a reason to rush a jet fighter into combat like the Germans did. The Me-262 was rushed into combat before she was ready.
Just what I was about to post. Exactly had the Allies needed to rush into deployment a jet fighter they could of but they didn't need to because they already had air superiority over much of Europe and felt that it wasn't necessary for them to rush them into operations before they were ready.
davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
This is certainly a leap. The Bell X-5 was clearly a more complex design than the P.1101 in that the wing sweep was variable in flight whereas the P.1101 was only ground adjustable. This does mean that the German plane would have had less development and flight problems than the X-5, and far less benefit from the wing sweep, but projecting an aircraft as being a winning design, when it never flew nor had a successful follow-on, is ignoring the vast number of aircraft that looked like a "winning design" while on the drawing board, turned out to be a less than stellar performer.
P.1101, Ta-183, and Go 229V-3 were all advanced designs, but the Germans did not have a mystical history of making advance designs into war machines without the time consuming trial and errors that all other designers had to go through in this era. Only the Go 229V-3 flew and only for couple of hours, as such, none of these aircraft can be called a "winning design". I would consider the Me-262 a winning design because it did perform beautifully and had problems that could be overcome with normal development. I would also consider the P-80 as a winning design because it continued to evolve into an effective fighter and had, in one form or another, a long history.
Both the Allies and Germans had demonstrated the ability to adapt very rapidly to new threats by their enemy and there is no reason to assume this would not continue. The allies were very familar with jet engines and were knowledgable of swept back wings in 1945.
DerAlder said:
Very knowledgable comment.
Never mind the variable sweep, a fixed wing is stronger and isn't as heavy, and like you said would prove less troublesome.
Anyway what I meant by that it seems a winning design is when all of its bugs were worked out, who knows how many, it surely would've performed well - aerodynamically it isn't that much different from the US Sabre. But its still only just a guess ofcourse...
The P.1101, Ta-183 and Go-229 probably would've all flown if it wasn't for the fact that German industry was being bombed as heavily as it was.
Effective ? Well thats debatable, it didn't do that well..
No, the Allies were behind in aerodynamics, and not only in terms of wing sweep and its effects. Remember that the main center of theoretical, mathematical aerodynamics and fluid dynamics research was the Ludwig Prandtl laboratory at Göttingen from 1904 to the end of WW2. The Lab remained the leading in the world in terms aerodynamics until the end of WW2.
And in Jet engine design the Allies were behind as-well, their centrifugal jet engine being much larger and less efficient than the German axial flow jet engine.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Wasn't the swept wing design (for the me-262) a result of the engineers attempting to balance some aerodynamic loads, without the knowledge it was more efficient at high subsonic speeds?
davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
It is a good looking design, but still there are always unknowns when a plane flies.
Probably, but again, unknown problems. I think the G0-229 was a long way from becoming an effective war bird. Too advanced for the technology available. Tank seemed to have some problems with the Ta-183 in Argentina, modifing the wing installation.
The P-80 seems to perform very comparatable to comtemporary jets, Vampire and Meteor, during the period 1945 to 1950. In Korea it did effective yeoman service but was outdated.
.
I would agree that, up until WWII, the Germans had done significant advanced work in all areas pertaining to warfighting ability while Allied scientist was starved of support. However, by 1945, massive research had closed that gap to a large extent, and passed them in certain categories such a nuclear research. Allied aerodynamic papers discussing swept wing atributes had been submitted as early as Jan. 1945. The German data after the war validated the research.
Those centrifugal engines were developed into powerful and reliable engines. In fact the Russians were very successful in using centrifugal engines to make the world class aircraft Mig-15 and Mig-17. You would have a hard time telling a Sabre pilot in his axial flow jet how much more inefficient that Mig engine was.
As for Allied axial technology, the Westinghouse 19XB-2B flew in an XFH-1 in Jan. 1945, and the GE J-35 flew in the XP-84 in Feb. 1946. The J-35 eventually grew into the J-47 engine, so it was quite a sophiscated and modern engine. The Brits worked even earlier on axial flow compressors. I don't have good data on their effort. Allied technology was accelerating in this field.
davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
I believe this is correct, but they had done a lot of work on transonic airspeed design including swept wings, as shown by the Ta-183.
