P40 Vs all other fighters in Europe

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Was the Emil really better than a Spitfire? In several ways it was more sophisticated, it had fuel injection and leading edge slats, combat flaps and a hydromatic / barometric controlled supercharger. But the Spitfire was so beautifully streamlined in spite of having 4' wider wingspan and a 40% greater wing area (with resulting superiority in turn performance) was actually faster than the Emil. I think the Spit I and the Emil were roughly equivalent. Which was better Spit or 109 went back and forth through the war with all the different variants, but they were always pretty close.

Let's look at the Emil versus the Mk.I. Both had technical advantages and disadvantages over each other, the list is quite extensive, but context again. The Emil had, despite a high wing loading benign stall characteristics, but it was a beast on the ground; poor visibility, poor lateral control on the ground, a heavy tail, awkward undercarriage geometry which made ground loops a mandatory aspect of operations, particularly after landing on rollout. Taxiing with the canopy open was a no no because the vibration from operating from grass strips meant the hinges wore out. In its favour the Emil has cannon armament, high altitude, high cruise speed at altitude and operating as escorts from altitude was able to carry out vertical combat manoeuvres to nullify the advantages that the Spitfire and Hurricane had over it in being superior low speed dog fighters.

Emils also had variable pitch props, although the switch was initially located on the dashboard, which meant the pilot had to do a dance with his hands to activate it, a distraction in combat that led to the lever being mounted sensibly on the side console next to the power lever. The Spit I started the war with a giant block of wood on the nose, which to be fair was in the process of being replaced by a two-position variable pitch prop, which again was later updated with a fully CS prop. The German supercharger was a very efficient piece of technology that operated barometrically by varying its output based on its altitude, whereas the Merlin's supercharger was effective only at a prescribed altitude band.

In the BoB the Emil was formidable and widely recognised as having a better ceiling than the RAF fighters, but of course the way combat worked was that the German escorts would have to dive down on their adversaries. In commenting about the Bf 109's perceived superior altitude, one RAF pilot stated, "Well, they have to come down here and get us..." This meant the RAF fighters could take advantage of their virtues, better manoeuvrability, which as we know combat descended into twisting turning individual scraps where the superior dog fighters could get the better of the Bf 109s that couldn't pull as tight turns as its adversaries. At high angles of bank, those lift slats snapped open asymmetrically and spoiled the pilot's aim.

As for the claim the Emil was arguably the best fighter in the world in 1939, it could at that time out perform the Spitfire I in altitude and it was more modern - no wooden prop, cannon armament, plus the Luftwaffe tactics learned in the Spanish Civil War meant that the Jagdgeschwader were better prepared for modern war.
 
The French got 4 Hawk 75s for test in Dec 1938.
The service aircraft started going into service in March 1939.
The A1 had four guns, supposedly seat armor, no PB glass and no protection on the fuel tanks.
The A2 had six guns. First ones delivered in May 1939 and 97 of that batch (100 ordered) were delivered by the end of Sept.

The French were working on trying to protect the fuel tanks by Oct 21st 1939. The PIlots were asking for 8mm of armor behind the seat.
I don't know what the original armor was or if it was even fitted in some of the planes.
 
Point is you can you have the extra fuel or you can have the weight penalty.
If the Germans are operating at less than a full load they have the advantage.
If your Hurricane is operating at, say 50% full (combat then getting home) then a P-40 isn't going to have much more fuel or it is going to be carrying more weight.

Right, and this is true (as I said) for all longer-ranged aircraft, but the point is, the P-40 in this case is going to be at that 50% full point about another 100 miles further out. Which means it can be used as an escort fighter for medium ranged strikes, like escorting Baltimores against German airfields.

If they are escorting a short range strike, like when escorting Hurricanes or other Kittyhawks carrying bombs, they are not going to use overload or external tanks (probably)

On the longer ranged strike, by the time they get into action they will (typically) no longer be in overload condition therefore at no particular defecit in performance or maneuvrability. Also helped they didn't have to lug around a vokes filter.
 
Yes. MS 406 was a 30's era fighter whose time had come and gone. And lets not forget the Bloch 150 / 152 series, which seems to have been a dud.

Again however, you field what you've got, not what you want. The background to France's fighter development was extensive, even the Amiot 143 was considered for a "fighter" role (!) as a Multiplace de combat. The French industry was in a woeful state at the outbreak of WW2 and buying US equipment added modern aircraft to the polyglot mix of aircraft, some of which were good, many of which were pretty below average. The French air force was definitely not materially prepared for defeating the Germans (funny how the Germans somehow knew this...), but it was the government's mind-set that caved in first. Had the country had more stout leadership its army could have been able to defeat the Germans on the ground - better tanks for starters, but the French collapse happened quicker than what was expected, catching even the Germans by surprise.
 
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Yes France had poor leadership, some really bad bureaucratic / administrative issues inside their military and government, and no unity. The nation was deeply split, with communist sympathizers on one side and fascists on the other, and most of the people caught in the middle very frustrated with the whole situation. France has been split this way since the revolution in the 18th Century. WW I had also been such a nightmare for France, they (the common people) really wanted to avoid another war.

They did have quite a mix of aircraft, some completely ridiculous, (like the Amiot 143) and some quite nice ones like D.520 and Br 693. Same with the tanks, the SOMUA S-35 was quite promising. I often wonder (and considered starting a thread on this) if they could have done much better if they had had another 3 or 4months. So many new war machines were either just arriving at their units or were weeks away from arriving. French and French-Colonial troops fought well under LeClerc and in the Free French army after D-Day.

But the main issue in 1940 was as you said, they lacked the leadership and were not unified. It's a very hard thing to fight a brutal war like WW2, and their heart just wasn't in it as a nation. I don't know if that is better or worse than say, Germany who did have a purpose and unity, but it was a delusional, evil and ultimately self-destructive one!

It was a difficult tightrope to walk. England had some trouble with ambivalence among some of their leaders too. But luckily for all of us, they walked that fine line and ultimately hung tough long enough to bring their Commonwealth allies into action, and the US.
 
[...] but it was the government's mind-set that caved in first. Had the country had more stout leadership its army could have been able to defeat the Germans on the ground [...]

Anyone looking to read about this further should read William Shirer's The Third Republic, a history of that era of French history.

The political divisions which made their politics so fractious filtered down to the people of the nation, which of necessity included the conscripts manning the tanks, planes, and Maginot line. The disunity infected the ranks imo.

Was it General Brooke who toured French positions in 1939 and commented in his diary about the sullen, unenergetic mien of the troops he saw there? Whoever it was, it seems pertinent here, because the failures of French leadership in government seem to have filtered down to the level of private soldier. The divisions in French society at that time seems to have undermined the morale of their army, to me.
 
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Didn't the Spitfire have an unprotected or lightly protected (i.e. no self sealing) fuel tank in front of the pilot?

It's a long and complicated story (as is usual with the Spitfire).

Mk Is initially didn't have any self sealing tanks. Then they got Linatex covering for the lower tank only (mod approved in April 1940) and then a fully self sealing lower tank (mod approved in July 1940). Upper tank was not self sealing, simply because there wasn't the room for it.

Mk Is (and Mk IIs) received a curved aluminum 'deflection plate' over the top tank in early 1940 (at least as early as February 1940 on a Mk II trials aircraft). This is variously given as 3 mm, 3.9 mm, 4 mm or 6 mm thick.

Sometime in 1940, the rear fireproof bulkhead on the Mk I was improved and extended to better protect the fuel tank (and the pilot). I think it was 8 mm of aluminum, plus an asbestos layer.

All the way out to the Mk 22, the top tank wasn't self sealing. Except for the Mk VIII and Mk VII, where the did introduce a self sealing top tank. The December 1943 manual Mk VII & Mk VIII manual lists all four fuel tanks as self sealing. As I understand it, more space was made available in the airframe by changing the upper fuel tank dimensions and lowering it directly onto the bottom tank.
 
Mk Is (and Mk IIs) received a curved aluminum 'deflection plate' over the top tank in early 1940 (at least as early as February 1940 on a Mk II trials aircraft). This is variously given as 3 mm, 3.9 mm, 4 mm or 6 mm thick.

10 swg duraluminium (ie: 3.251 mm)

They were being produced with this protection by August 1939.
 
It's a long and complicated story (as is usual with the Spitfire).

...

Sometime in 1940, the rear fireproof bulkhead on the Mk I was improved and extended to better protect the fuel tank (and the pilot). I think it was 8 mm of aluminum, plus an asbestos layer.

All the way out to the Mk 22, the top tank wasn't self sealing. Except for the Mk VIII and Mk VII, where the did introduce a self sealing top tank. The December 1943 manual Mk VII & Mk VIII manual lists all four fuel tanks as self sealing. As I understand it, more space was made available in the airframe by changing the upper fuel tank dimensions and lowering it directly onto the bottom tank.

Yet another reason to love the Spitfire Mk VIII.
 
Let's look at the Emil versus the Mk.I. Both had technical advantages and disadvantages over each other, the list is quite extensive, but context again. The Emil had, despite a high wing loading benign stall characteristics, but it was a beast on the ground; poor visibility, poor lateral control on the ground, a heavy tail, awkward undercarriage geometry which made ground loops a mandatory aspect of operations, particularly after landing on rollout. Taxiing with the canopy open was a no no because the vibration from operating from grass strips meant the hinges wore out. In its favour the Emil has cannon armament, high altitude, high cruise speed at altitude and operating as escorts from altitude was able to carry out vertical combat manoeuvres to nullify the advantages that the Spitfire and Hurricane had over it in being superior low speed dog fighters.

Emils also had variable pitch props, although the switch was initially located on the dashboard, which meant the pilot had to do a dance with his hands to activate it, a distraction in combat that led to the lever being mounted sensibly on the side console next to the power lever. The Spit I started the war with a giant block of wood on the nose, which to be fair was in the process of being replaced by a two-position variable pitch prop, which again was later updated with a fully CS prop. The German supercharger was a very efficient piece of technology that operated barometrically by varying its output based on its altitude, whereas the Merlin's supercharger was effective only at a prescribed altitude band.

In the BoB the Emil was formidable and widely recognised as having a better ceiling than the RAF fighters, but of course the way combat worked was that the German escorts would have to dive down on their adversaries. In commenting about the Bf 109's perceived superior altitude, one RAF pilot stated, "Well, they have to come down here and get us..." This meant the RAF fighters could take advantage of their virtues, better manoeuvrability, which as we know combat descended into twisting turning individual scraps where the superior dog fighters could get the better of the Bf 109s that couldn't pull as tight turns as its adversaries. At high angles of bank, those lift slats snapped open asymmetrically and spoiled the pilot's aim.

As for the claim the Emil was arguably the best fighter in the world in 1939, it could at that time out perform the Spitfire I in altitude and it was more modern - no wooden prop, cannon armament, plus the Luftwaffe tactics learned in the Spanish Civil War meant that the Jagdgeschwader were better prepared for modern war.

You think the early Spitfire was a better low-speed dogfighter than the Bf 109E?

I think it was the other way, with the Bf 109E slats helping the Emil hang in there in turns, even if stalled, and the Spitfire being better at medium to high speeds, when the Bf 109E controls got too heavy to be of much use.

But, hey, we don't exactly have an example of each to test it out with, do we? Damn! It would have been great fun.

I'll hoist a Spitfire Ale and say, "another round ..."
 
Spitfire Mk 1 - 5,935 lbs / 242 sq ft wing area = 24 lb / sq ft wing loading
Bf 109E - 5,700 lbs / 174 sq ft wing area = 32 lb / sq ft wing loading

I just googled the weights so there might be some variance in those numbers, but I think that is in the ballpark.

And I don't know how much the slats helped but that is a lot of ground to make up for. As in about a 25% advantage for the Spit.


Also in the Med in 1942-43, with Spit V vs. 109F, anecdotally (in the various pilot interviews) all the British and American and most of the German pilots seemed to agree, the Spitfire could easily out-turn the 109. And I had always understood the 109F to be the best turning variant, though I know that depends on various factors.

German tactics seemed to be pretty similar to what I've read for the BoB (and partly mentioned upthread) i.e. attack from above, preferably with surprise, disengage and try again. Try to avoid the turning fight.

This was also one of the reasons why the German fighter pilots hated flying escort.
 
You think the early Spitfire was a better low-speed dogfighter than the Bf 109E?

I believe that RAE or ADFU test pilots found that to be the case.


I think it was the other way, with the Bf 109E slats helping the Emil hang in there in turns, even if stalled, and the Spitfire being better at medium to high speeds, when the Bf 109E controls got too heavy to be of much use.

What was determined was that service pilots were unable to turn as tightly in Spitfires as the test pilots were in the 109E. With experienced test pilots in both, the Spitfire handily out-turned the 109.

German pilots were more experienced before the BoB, and would likely have more confidence to get close to the limits of the aircraft than their British counterparts.
 
Spitfire Mk 1 - 5,935 lbs / 242 sq ft wing area = 24 lb / sq ft wing loading
Bf 109E - 5,700 lbs / 174 sq ft wing area = 32 lb / sq ft wing loading

I just googled the weights so there might be some variance in those numbers, but I think that is in the ballpark.

And I don't know how much the slats helped but that is a lot of ground to make up for. As in about a 25% advantage for the Spit.
You have to compute the additional wing area once the slats are deployed, that will paint a better picture of the wing loading once the -109 is in that configuration.
 
I believe that RAE or ADFU test pilots found that to be the case.




What was determined was that service pilots were unable to turn as tightly in Spitfires as the test pilots were in the 109E. With experienced test pilots in both, the Spitfire handily out-turned the 109.

German pilots were more experienced before the BoB, and would likely have more confidence to get close to the limits of the aircraft than their British counterparts.

The Germans thought the Spitfire was better turning than the 109E as well. Quoting from the August 1940 German trials of a 109-E3, 110C, Spitfire, Hurricane and a Hawk 75 "Curtiss":

"Before turning fights with the Bf 109 E type, it must be noted in every case, that all three foreign planes have significantly smaller turning circles and turning times.
An attack on the opponent as well as disengagement can only be accomplished on the basis of existing superiority in performance."

Both Spitfire and Hurricane had the older, two pitch propellers - I'm not sure how much that hurt/helped turn performance.


The RAF's Hurricane Mk I vs a 109-E trials from May 1940 found the British could go from in front of the Germany fighter to behind it in the space of four circles. The RAF also found that the Hurricane's turning circle was about 10% better than that of the Spitfire.

June 1940 Spitfire Mk I vs 109-E trials stated "the Spitfire out-turned the Messerschmitt almost as easily as the Hurricane".
 
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The Germans thought the Spitfire was better turning than the 109E as well. Quoting from the August 1940 German trials of a 109-E3, 110C, Spitfire, Hurricane and a Hawk 75 "Curtiss":

"Before turning fights with the Bf 109 E type, it must be noted in every case, that all three foreign planes have significantly smaller turning circles and turning times.
An attack on the opponent as well as disengagement can only be accomplished on the basis of existing superiority in performance."

Both Spitfire and Hurricane had the older, two pitch propellers - I'm not sure how much that hurt/helped turn performance.


The RAF's Hurricane Mk I vs a 109-E trials from May 1940 found the British could go from in front of the Germany fighter to behind it in the space of four circles. The RAF also found that the Hurricane's turning circle was about 10% better than that of the Spitfire.

June 1940 Spitfire Mk I vs 109-E trials stated "the Spitfire out-turned the Messerschmitt almost as easily as the Hurricane".
Jabberwocky,

Are you able to identify "all three foreign planes" from your passage? I'm assuming it's the Hurricane & Spitfire, but am curious what the third A/C might be.

Cheers,
Biff
 
Jabberwocky,

Are you able to identify "all three foreign planes" from your passage? I'm assuming it's the Hurricane & Spitfire, but am curious what the third A/C might be.

Cheers,
Biff
It is in the line above Spitfire, Hurricane and Hawk 75. However by August 1940 the Spit and Hurricane were both fitted with CS props and the Spitfire MkII was starting to come into service.
 
The RAAF pranged a lot of Spitfires around Darwin as well.

Anthony Cooper's Darwin Spitfires book gives 36 Spitfire VCs damaged badly enough during takeoff or landing between February and September 1943 to require attention from the Repair and Servicing unit. He attributes this to the conditions inherent to the bush airfields the Spitfires were operating from. These were narrow and made of dirt (compared to the wide grassy airfields used by in the UK and in NSW). Of the 36 Spitfires, only seven (~20%) were actually damaged at the main paved Darwin airfield, the rest were damaged at the smaller ancillary dirt fields.
117 Spitfires were ridden off at Darwin to all causes.
 

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