Gents,
I will throw out some perspectives and feel free to fire questions back.
First, I'm impressed with the knowledge you guys display on something that is an almost must see to believe / do to understand. I can not overstate that!
Shortround6 I agree with your assessment of the Bf 109 (I think I spaced that correctly) in that the Spit handily out turned it. Also your grasp of the simple fact to turn and maintain airspeed requires a downward spiral (or you need to give up altitude) is absolutely correct.
The key that I will point out is an airplane has a speed that it turns best at, or one that will keep your opponent from bringing his nose to bear in a turning fight (assuming he is somewhere between / behind your 4-8 o'clock). At this speed you can steepen your turn (start what looks like a low yo yo) and hold your speed. That requires you to increase G to control speed but you are giving up a LOT of altitude. The goal is to be just nose low enough to hold your desired speed / G. If you shallow out you will burn off airspeed and your circle will eventually grow. Bigger circle or going slower lets the smartly flown bandit enter the gun employment zone, as does the low yo yo type turn (all this assumes you are defensive) as it gives him more room to maneuver.
Schweik,
Your understanding of the scissors is great with two small corrections. First, your top picture shows two drawings, the upper one is a Flat scissors, while the lower of the two is a rolling scissors. You describe the Flat but call it a rolling. Maybe in WW2 terms they just called it a scissors or a rolling scissors, but under todays terminology, they are two different beasts. Also, the flat scissors is used when both aircraft are out of energy, or one has a better turn than the others. It favors the better turning plane (slats or not). The rolling scissors usually rewards the better power to weight, or the guy who arrives there with a speed / energy advantage. The rolling scissors is two guys seeing who can fly the greatest distance while covering the least distance over the ground. Or the guy who can fly the biggest circles (will cover the lessor distance across the ground).
Also mentioned above is the bulkhead behind the pilot. The biggest thing I can say there, is if you want to survive, you need to keep checking your six, and if you get jumped you CAN NOT LOSE SIGHT of the guy trying to kill you (hated this about the movie Dunkirk). That means you are moving around in the seat, mashing your face / helmet against the canopy, flying, all while looking over your shoulder. There are many axioms, one of which is, "lose sight, lose the fight". And to quote Marissa Tomei in My Cousin Vinney, it's "dead on balls accurate".
Next is the Bf 109 and it's flight controls. I have read that they were heavy in roll, and light in pitch or that they weren't harmonized evenly. Also I have read that the slats do not deploy evenly at times, which can make it difficult to fly well / aim. I have also watched a well regarded airshow pilot get checked out on one (video) and he repeated that you brought the power in very slowly, and you didn't stop flying it until you shut down the motor. In other words it was ready to bite you at all times. Fly it long enough and a pilot can not only overcome a planes bites, but do well in it (there are enough Experten to prove this). If a Bf 109 guy is exploiting the vertical while fighting a Soviet guy, or anyone else, it's one of two things. A, he either understands how and when to do it, or B he has more power / energy.
The biggest thing I take away from reading about all these engagements, is the guys talking about them I think describe it differently than I would. It could either be they didn't understand fully what they were doing, or they did something that the enemy didn't know how to counter (good training vice poor). I've listened to WW Nam era guys talk about lag rolls, and I shudder. They got away with it, but that's not the best way to accomplish what they wanted to do. An adversary who was WATCHING them do it, and KNEW what to do would have stuffed them every time. Big picture I take with a grain of salt some of what I read and try to filter it through my individual understanding of what it is they were doing / trying to do. Also, these guys training would be considered very light compared to what we get today.
Cheers,
Biff
I will throw out some perspectives and feel free to fire questions back.
First, I'm impressed with the knowledge you guys display on something that is an almost must see to believe / do to understand. I can not overstate that!
Shortround6 I agree with your assessment of the Bf 109 (I think I spaced that correctly) in that the Spit handily out turned it. Also your grasp of the simple fact to turn and maintain airspeed requires a downward spiral (or you need to give up altitude) is absolutely correct.
The key that I will point out is an airplane has a speed that it turns best at, or one that will keep your opponent from bringing his nose to bear in a turning fight (assuming he is somewhere between / behind your 4-8 o'clock). At this speed you can steepen your turn (start what looks like a low yo yo) and hold your speed. That requires you to increase G to control speed but you are giving up a LOT of altitude. The goal is to be just nose low enough to hold your desired speed / G. If you shallow out you will burn off airspeed and your circle will eventually grow. Bigger circle or going slower lets the smartly flown bandit enter the gun employment zone, as does the low yo yo type turn (all this assumes you are defensive) as it gives him more room to maneuver.
Schweik,
Your understanding of the scissors is great with two small corrections. First, your top picture shows two drawings, the upper one is a Flat scissors, while the lower of the two is a rolling scissors. You describe the Flat but call it a rolling. Maybe in WW2 terms they just called it a scissors or a rolling scissors, but under todays terminology, they are two different beasts. Also, the flat scissors is used when both aircraft are out of energy, or one has a better turn than the others. It favors the better turning plane (slats or not). The rolling scissors usually rewards the better power to weight, or the guy who arrives there with a speed / energy advantage. The rolling scissors is two guys seeing who can fly the greatest distance while covering the least distance over the ground. Or the guy who can fly the biggest circles (will cover the lessor distance across the ground).
Also mentioned above is the bulkhead behind the pilot. The biggest thing I can say there, is if you want to survive, you need to keep checking your six, and if you get jumped you CAN NOT LOSE SIGHT of the guy trying to kill you (hated this about the movie Dunkirk). That means you are moving around in the seat, mashing your face / helmet against the canopy, flying, all while looking over your shoulder. There are many axioms, one of which is, "lose sight, lose the fight". And to quote Marissa Tomei in My Cousin Vinney, it's "dead on balls accurate".
Next is the Bf 109 and it's flight controls. I have read that they were heavy in roll, and light in pitch or that they weren't harmonized evenly. Also I have read that the slats do not deploy evenly at times, which can make it difficult to fly well / aim. I have also watched a well regarded airshow pilot get checked out on one (video) and he repeated that you brought the power in very slowly, and you didn't stop flying it until you shut down the motor. In other words it was ready to bite you at all times. Fly it long enough and a pilot can not only overcome a planes bites, but do well in it (there are enough Experten to prove this). If a Bf 109 guy is exploiting the vertical while fighting a Soviet guy, or anyone else, it's one of two things. A, he either understands how and when to do it, or B he has more power / energy.
The biggest thing I take away from reading about all these engagements, is the guys talking about them I think describe it differently than I would. It could either be they didn't understand fully what they were doing, or they did something that the enemy didn't know how to counter (good training vice poor). I've listened to WW Nam era guys talk about lag rolls, and I shudder. They got away with it, but that's not the best way to accomplish what they wanted to do. An adversary who was WATCHING them do it, and KNEW what to do would have stuffed them every time. Big picture I take with a grain of salt some of what I read and try to filter it through my individual understanding of what it is they were doing / trying to do. Also, these guys training would be considered very light compared to what we get today.
Cheers,
Biff
