p51 vs p47

p47 or p51


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First the P-38 kept the daylite raids going before the appearance of the P-51 escorts by themselves for the first two months and parity of the P-51/P-38 was not reached untill the end of May '44. The P-51 after that and was adopted fir two reasons it was easier to build in numbers and the desire to cut as much out of the logistics demand as possible (as confirmed by Doolittle himself the man who the final decision in the ETO), period.

The P-51 came at a time that gave the 8th an excuse for not escorting the bombers from the start, that the P-38 wasn't used but was available was an embarassment that would have otherwise cost Arnold, Eaker and Spatz their jobs.

One example of the attitude was that only 165gal drop tanks were ever used in the ETO Though 300 gallon tanks were available and in use everywhare else in the world, this limited the range of the early P-38 just enough to give the P-51 an ~ 100mi range advantage.

The P-38, as an example, had better performance every where except cruise speed, In the 8th (the only place we have a direct comparison) a better kill/loss record (twice the P-51) and was 3.82 times (adjusted for sorties) more likely to come home. The P-38 escort in the 8th was against a more experianced foe who also had numerical superority.

As for cost, even today a pilot is the most expensive part of a fighter, the loss of 4 P-51 pilots for each P-38 pilot is a lot. The P-51 was cheapper to buy and fuel.

The P-51 was the worst of the AAF fighters from a ground attack point of view even including the P-40 that could carry about as much and less suceptable to ground fire.

The P-51 was a competant fighter that had numerical superiorority over a diminished enemy. The P-51 smothered the German fighters more than out fought them. Very Overrated.

wmaxt
 
The P-38 didn't keep the daylight raids alive. The US 8th Air Force was on the brink of cancellation of daylight raids until the Mustang came along. But you're absolutely right about the two reasons it was chosen but there just might have been another reason. The P-38 was a harder aircraft to fly than the P-51. The P-51 was a rookie's machine, and most airmen were rookies.

The P-38 was more expensive to build, harder to fly and harder to build. It wasn't a good war weapon. The P-51 could be up there in larger numbers due to it's design.

No, during World War II life was cheap. It was the cheapest in the Soviet Union and Germany but it was still cheap in the Western Democracy. It needed to be cheap or we would have lost the war. The U.S could train pilots at an extremely high rate, high rate enough to say; man all their air force? Which they did and there was more to their air force because there was a nice easy plane to build, the P-51.

Entering combat at a higher speed than your opponent is a distinct advantage. The P-51 entered combat on the advantage almost everytime, even if it was on it's own. But, you're right, it smothered it's enemy and the ability to do so was from the fact that the plane was cheap and easy to build.

The pilots like the P-38 better but who cares what they say? It's the production that'll win the war, they're just the middle-man. # for $ wins wars, not turning circles.
 
wmaxt said:
The P-51 was a competant fighter that had numerical superiorority over a diminished enemy. The P-51 smothered the German fighters more than out fought them. Very Overrated.

wmaxt

Agreed with overwellming numerical numbers in fact.
 
When you make a list of all the factors that make up a fighter, the P51 was good in enough of them to make it overall, a high quality aircraft. Best in all catagories? No. Good in all of the catagories? YES!

Was there some glaring defect in the plane that made it substandard? Or are the Spit and 109/190 fans jealous that the range of the Mustang enabled it to fly to where the action was when those other planes were on the ground refueling?

:D
 
syscom3 said:
When you make a list of all the factors that make up a fighter, the P51 was good in enough of them to make it overall, a high quality aircraft. Best in all catagories? No. Good in all of the catagories? YES!

When you make up a lilst of all the factors that make up a fighter was the 109/190/152 eneogh to make them the best? No. Good in all catagories? YES!

syscom3 said:
Was there some glaring defect in the plane that made it substandard? Or are the Spit and 109/190 fans jealous that the range of the Mustang enabled it to fly to where the action was when those other planes were on the ground refueling?

No the range was the 51's only real relevant advantage. When it was taking the fight to Germany, the German fighters did not need the range, they just had to go up and fight.

Are the Mustange fans just jealous that it was overated?
 
[quote="DerAdlerIstGelandet]
No the range was the 51's only real relevant advantage. When it was taking the fight to Germany, the German fighters did not need the range, they just had to go up and fight.

Are the Mustange fans just jealous that it was overated?[/quote]

I don't know if jealous is quite the right word but thats close to the truth.

wmaxt
 
I just think it is funny, especially after he made that dumb comment. Most fans (again I said most of us) of the 109/190/152 accept the faults that they had because they know that no plane is perfect, but Mustang fans like himself, who think that the 51 was the greatest thing since bread and butter, believe that it had no faults and was the greatest thing.

Each aircraft was good at somethings and bad at others. Some people dont seem to realize this especially the guys who live by the P-51.

Do I think the 51 is crap. NO! It was a great plane. Was it remarkable. NO! Was the Bf-109 remarkable? NO! Was the Fw-190 remarkable? NO! Well actually each of these planes is remarkable in its own way.

Now can we please get back to the point of this thread?
 
plan_D said:
The P-38 didn't keep the daylight raids alive.

The P-38 was more expensive to build, harder to fly and harder to build. It wasn't a good war weapon.

No, during World War II life was cheap. It was the cheapest in the Soviet Union and Germany but it was still cheap in the Western Democracy. Which they did and there was more to their air force because there was a nice easy plane to build, the P-51.

Entering combat at a higher speed than your opponent is a distinct advantage. The P-51 entered combat on the advantage almost everytime, even if it was on it's own. But, you're right, it smothered it's enemy and the ability to do so was from the fact that the plane was cheap and easy to build.

The pilots like the P-38 better but who cares what they say? It's the production that'll win the war, they're just the middle-man. # for $ wins wars, not turning circles.

Wheather you admit it or not from the period from Oct '43 to the end of Dec it was all P-38. From January to May there were more P-38s than P-51s. Without the P-38s the long range bombing would have stopped until June '44 at the earliest.

Doolittle admits he made the decision to go with the P-51 over Both the P-38 and the P-47 based on logistics, not cost.
2. Also the P-38 was Second sourced in Jan '45 a YEAR after the P-51s showed and 6 monthe after the 8th and only the 8th decided to go with 1 prime fighter other that the P-38. If it was cost for a medeocer aircraft they would have cut back.
3. The WPB refused a 2/3week delay to get the K on line because they would lose ~50 planes, cost was not the issue.

Higher speed? P-51s flew 250mph out of Britain, and up to 350mph out of Italy, as confirmed by WWII P-51 pilots. The P-38L cruised most efficently at 290mph. With a P-38 at 290mph and a P-51 at 350mph full throttle will get both to 420 at the same time. If you were bounced and never saw it it doesnt matter how fast your going.

As for the Pilots They just wanted the best and when a P-51 pilot says that to fight a P-38 with a P-51 you better start a lot higher and faster to have a chance, it isn't because he thinks the P-51 is better.

The P-51 did win the choice in the 8th and it was probably a lot due to production numbers and maybe a little on the demand for the P-38 elswhere. The P-51 was 90% fighter capabilities against the 190/109 and even the P-38L, It was aircraft numbers that made the difference.

I'm not saying the P-38 was gods gift to fighters the P-38 was not perfect and the early planes had some serious issues but it was noticeably better than the P-51 which was a good, solid, competitive fighter with long legs.

wmaxt
 
DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
I just think it is funny, especially after he made that dumb comment. Most fans (again I said most of us) of the 109/190/152 accept the faults that they had because they know that no plane is perfect, but Mustang fans like himself, who think that the 51 was the greatest thing since bread and butter, believe that it had no faults and was the greatest thing.

Each aircraft was good at somethings and bad at others. Some people dont seem to realize this especially the guys who live by the P-51.

Do I think the 51 is crap. NO! It was a great plane. Was it remarkable. NO! Was the Bf-109 remarkable? NO! Was the Fw-190 remarkable? NO! Well actually each of these planes is remarkable in its own way.

Now can we please get back to the point of this thread?

Your right, and maybe you said it better than I did. Its time to get back to the thread.

wmaxt
 
syscom3 said:
wmaxt said:
plan_D said:
....Also the P-38 was Second sourced in Jan '45 a YEAR after the P-51s wmaxt

I didnt think the P38 was second sourced at all. Some people called it a criminal act for not to second source the P38 back in 1942, and instead put money and effort into P40's and P39's.

Consolidated-Vultee built 113 L models in '45. They had done some parts before that so it was a natural.

I agree with that. The WPB also nixed the K model and the unified engine controls that would have really extended the high speed cruise, not to mention simplified the cocpit helping new pilots a bunch.

wmaxt
 
wmaxt, youre right. C-V built some P38's at their Nashville plant. I had forgot about them. Than ks for reminding me.

Im looking at my P38 book. They were P38L-5-VN, tail numbers 43-50226 through 43-50338. I dont have any delivery dates for them. Ayone know? The book has a big blank on delivery date for this batch.
 
syscom3 said:
wmaxt, youre right. C-V built some P38's at their Nashville plant. I had forgot about them. Than ks for reminding me.

Im looking at my P38 book. They were P38L-5-VN, tail numbers 43-50226 through 43-50338. I dont have any delivery dates for them. Ayone know? The book has a big blank on delivery date for this batch.

They might of been scrapped at the factory....
 
Here is what I have:

43-50226/50338 Lockheed P-38L-5-VN Lightning
50281 (F-5G-6-LO)

50310 to NC75666, to the Caribbean Legion on Cayo Confites base of MRD (Movimiento Revolucionaria Dominicano), 08/47 taken over by Cuba as CAEC 126

50312 to NL5016N, to the Caribbean Legion on Cayo Confites base of MRD (Movimiento Revolucionaria Dominicano), 08/47 taken over by Cuba as CAEC 122.

That info is from Joe Baugher's serial number search page.

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher/usafserials.html

He has a pretty comprehensive database for serial numbers. He also has one for Navy aircraft.
 

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