Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine

I was thinking along the same lines. In several of the photos that showed the composite groups, the T-72BM is usually centered in a group of the other T-72 types...so far, I haven't seen two T-72BMs in the company of each other.

211 victims have been identified so far. This more than estimated they could do, so the researchers are doing a pretty good job.
In the mean time, I guess you all heard about the report from the investigation. This is a preliminary report, so is a little careful. The summary was that MH17 has been hit by a agood number of external objects. Although the report doesn't explicitly mentions the word missile, I think this does imply that it was.

The report can be read here: http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/phase-docs/701/b3923acad0ceprem-rapport-mh-17-en-interactief.pdf

The implication I got from the preliminary report was that it was hit by a AA missile although they didn't say it in so many words.

The evidence clearly supports a hit buy a BUK system and yet the majority of Russian news agencies claim they have eyewitness accounts that a Ukrainian Su-25 not only hit the airliner with an air-to-air, but strafed it as it was descending.

Considering the altitude and the overcast conditions that day, these "eyewitnesses" must have been eating Chernobyl carrots.

And the amazing pilot of that magic Su-25...not only does he manage to get that beast up to that altitude, but scores a hit with an air-to-air AND administers a coupe-de-gras with his "six guns" blazing...

If you stop and think about it for a second, does Russia really want to go to war against such awesome Ukrainian pilots? Just imagine what these incredible pilots could do with newer Ukrainian aircraft against their opponents!

278 victims have been identified. Incredible! Also big thanks to the Ukrainian locals. They erected a memorial at the site today.

Good news in a way....

So sad when I think that this will become just a foot note in east west relations with no one ever being held to task. It's happened before and will no doubt happen again.

Indeed, good to see the locals assisting and remembering all the same.

This will probably be the event in 2014 that will be reminded most here in the Netherlands.

The teams did an incredible job. Only 4 passengers remain unidentified.

I'd like to post a cartoon about the matter, but I don't know if it could be too "strong".......

The truth hurts some times.....

Sad but true.

Marcel said:

This will probably be the event in 2014 that will be reminded most here in the Netherlands.

The teams did an incredible job. Only 4 passengers remain unidentified.

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That's a remarkable success rate as some of the victims were in pretty bad shape to be ID'd.

It's a terrible thing to have a year remembered by such a shameful tragedy.

Elmas said:

I'd like to post a cartoon about the matter, but I don't know if it could be too "strong".......

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Post it and we'll see

ok...... Moderators will see if take it out .....

I have no problem with it. But my opinion doesn't count for much on the forum.

That cartoon pretty much sums it up. Sad, but true...

Capt. Vick said:

So sad when I think that this will become just a foot note in east west relations with no one ever being held to task. It's happened before and will no doubt happen again.

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Sadly it's the way things are, very rarely are the guilty in war ever held to account, even for deliberate misconduct.

And frankly, while it's a horrible tragedy, it seems pretty clear that the crew that fired didn't intend to hit a civilian airliner, so if no one was held to account for Iran 655, bombing of the Chinese embassy, Israel bombing a UN hospital etc etc etc - I find it hard to see how we could in good conscience demand something otherwise in this case.

Seems that the ICJ was intended to adjudicate these types of offences, but since we've gutted it's authority there isn't much that they can do.

If it was an accident (and I do believe it was) they should have stated such. Denying it and coming out with ludicrous explanations such as the CIA was behind it or releasing a doctored photo showing a Ukraine Fighter shooting it down really makes it look like a cover up.

freebird said:

so if no one was held to account for Iran 655, bombing of the Chinese embassy, Israel bombing a UN hospital etc etc etc - I find it hard to see how we could in good conscience demand something otherwise in this case.

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Love those examples...

In all honesty, the "bombing" of a UN hospital or the Bombing of the Chinese Embassy don't have much to do about this thread, other than thinly veiled barbs at the U.S. and Israel.

If we want to stay on track and put it into perspective, then let's look at the bigger picture:

24 August 1938 - CNAC DC-2 downed by Japanese aircraft. 15 of 18 people perished.

June 14 1940 - Aero O/Y Ju52/3 downed by Soviet aircraft. All 9 aboard perished.

29 October 1940 - CNAC DC-2 downed by Japanese aircraft. All 9 aboard perished.

3 March 1942 - KNILM DC-3 downed by Japanese aircraft. 4 of 8 people perished.

1 June 1943 - BOAC DC-3 (flight 777) downed by German aircraft. All 17 aboard perished.

23 July 1954 - Cathay Pacific DC-4 downed by Chinese aircraft. 10 of 19 people perished.

27 July 1955 - El Al L-149 (flight 402) downed by Bulgarian aircraft. All 58 aboard perished.

21 February 1973 - Libyan Airlines 727 (flight 114) downed by Israeli aircraft. 108 of 113 perished.

20 April 1978 - KAL 707 (flight 902) downed by Soviet aircraft. 2 of 109 perished.

3 September 1978 - Air Rhodesia Viscount (flight 825) downed by ZIPRA SAM. 38 of 56 people perished.

12 February 1979 - Air Rhodesia Viscount (flight 827) downed by ZIPRA SAM. All 59 aboard perished.

27 June 1980 - Aerolinee Itavia DC-9 (flight 870) downed by French aircraft. All 81 aboard perished.

1 September 1983 - KAL 747 (flight 007) downed by Soviet aircraft. All 269 aboard perished.

24 February 1985 - AWI Do228 downed by guerrilla ground forces. All 3 aboard perished.

6 November 1987 - Air Malawi SC.7 downed by ground forces. All 10 aboard perished.

3 July 1988 - Iran Air (flight 655) downed by U.S. Navy. All 290 aboard perished.

8 December 1988 - T&G Aviation DC-7 downed by guerrilla ground forces. All 5 aboard perished.

21 September 1993 - Transair Georgia Tu-134 downed by rebel SAM. All 136 aboard perished.

22 September 1993- Transair Georgia Tu-154 downed by rebel SAM. 108 of 132 perished.

6 April 1994 - Rwandan Dassault 50 (Presidential flight) downed by RPF SAM. All 12 aboard (including two Presidents) perished.

29 September 1998 - Lionair An-24 (flight 602) downed by rebel SAM. All 55 aboard perished.

4 October 2001 - SAL Tu-154 (flight 1812) downed by Ukrainian SAM. All 78 aboard perished.

9 January 2007 - Aerian Tur-M An-26 (charter) downed by insurgent SAM. 34 of 35 people perished.

23 March 2007 - TAEA Il-76 (cargo) downed by rebel SAM. All 11 aboard perished.

And of course this year's tragedy.

So this sort of BS has been going on for nearly 100 years. After viewing this terrible list, I certainly hope that "we" don't continue to "pick and choose" tragic events to villify one group or a nation in the future.