PBS SHOW TO ARGUE ALLIES AS BAD AS NAZIS

[seesul]

It´s always sad for me to see such a discussion...the agressor seems to be a victim and the victim seems to be an agressor?
Hey people, wake up! Once you start the war, you gotta count with effects...
Agressor build concentration camps...why?...just to kill the NATION,RELIGION or POLITICS...
Victim (and agressor as well) bombed the civilian cities...why? To show the power, to frighten the people and to make the war SHORTER (not the agresor).
The war is not a PC game and you gotta kill or to be killed only because of ****ing decision made by politicians...
I know few WW2 vets (both Allies and Axis) and all of them are friends of mine...why? Because they can speak to each other as a friends today and no one from them would fight anymore...****ing politicians toke them their youth away and teached them how to kill in a best way...shocking?...no, unfortunately reality 60 years ago...do you think it´s long time ago? I don´t think so...but sometime I feel people forget too fast...´cause they don´t care for the past.
But if you don´t care for the past, you can´t build a peaceful future...so wake up...

For those they know Willi Reschke here´s what he told me 2 years ago during his visit during the discussion in our museum:

Dear friends, if I can, I wanna apologize for everything that Germans did to your nation during WW2. Today I know I helped Hitler to reach his target but back then I wanted to defence my land. When I hanged behind B-17, there were only 2 possibilities- to kill or to be killed...Anyway, though I was your former enemy, I´m as your friend here today and I hope we all will be friends forever...I´ll never forget these moments spent here with you.

and:

Roman, I have never expected that I´ll visit this area again and I didn´t know what to expect here as a German fighter pilot. But I have to say that I still can´t get over. Why so many people came here, were so kind to me, asked me questions? I could kill their fathers or grandfathers in WW2 and they were so friendly to me...You know, in Germany, some skinheads used my name and pictures of me on their websites and lot of my friends thought I´m a nazi and I had a lot of problems with that. So that´s why I was so careful when you asked me if I could come here. Today I know it was one of my best decisions I ever toke...

And that´s why I´m interested in the WW2 history...
More at:
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/av...joe-owsianik-meeting-after-63-years-9298.html
Warbird Photo Album - Willi Reschke

 

[JugBR]

It´s always sad for me to see such a discussion...the agressor seems to be a victim and the victim seems to be an agressor?
Hey people, wake up! Once you start the war, you gotta count with effects...
Agressor build concentration camps...why?...just to kill the NATION,RELIGION or POLITICS...
Victim (and agressor as well) bombed the civilian cities...why? To show the power, to frighten the people and to make the war SHORTER (not the agresor).
The war is not a PC game and you gotta kill or to be killed only because of ****ing decision made by politicians...
I know few WW2 vets (both Allies and Axis) and all of them are friends of mine...why? Because they can speak to each other as a friends today and no one from them would fight anymore...****ing politicians toke them their youth away and teached them how to kill in a best way...shocking?...no, unfortunately reality 60 years ago...do you think it´s long time ago? I don´t think so...but sometime I feel people forget to fast...´cause they don´t care for the past.
But if you don´t care for the past, you can´t build a peaceful future...so wake up...

For those they know Willi Reschke here´s what he told me 2 years ago during his visit during the discussion in our museum:

Dear friends, if I can, I wanna apologize for everything that Germans did to your nation during WW2. Today I know I helped Hitler to reach his target but back then I wanted to defence my land. When I hanged behind B-17, there were only 2 possibilities- to kill or to be killed...Anyway, though I was your former enemy, I´m as your friend here today and I hope we all will be friends forever...I´ll never forget these moments spent here with you.

and:

Roman, I have never expected that I´ll visit this area again and I didn´t know what to expect here as a German fighter pilot. But I have to say that I still can´t get over. Why so many people came here, were so kind to me, asked me questions? I could kill their fathers or grandfathers in WW2 and they were so friendly to me...You know, in Germany, some skinheads used my name and pictures of me on their websites and lot of my friends thought I´m a nazi and I had a lot of problems with that. So that´s why I was so careful when you asked me if I could come here. Today I know it was one of my best decisions I ever toke...

And that´s why I´m interested in the WW2 history...
More at:
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/av...joe-owsianik-meeting-after-63-years-9298.html
Warbird Photo Album - Willi Reschke

100% with you man !

 

[timshatz]

Looks if my point of view was off...I will do my home work on this ...

Only by a matter of degrees. The book is an excellent one (Hastings is a very good historian about WW2, wrote books like "Overlord: Six Armies in Normandy" and "Das Riech: March of the 2nd SS Panzer through France"). Very well researched, almost meticulous.

Details your assertion that Bomber Command missed most of it's targets in the early part of the war (the "one bomb in 3" landing within 5 miles of the target). That study lead to better marking and all the stuff in my earlier post. However, as the bombers got more effective, there came a greater question of the morality of area bombing and Harris's "Dehousing" campaign for the German Populace. There were also questions of Harris's (and the American Bomber Barons) attempts to limit dillution of what they saw as the goal of strategic bombing by Ike and other leaders in the runup to D-Day, namely, winning the war by bombing alone. The US thought it could get it done by bombing strategic specific objectives (the oil attacks being the one that finally brought about long term results they desired) while Bomber Command stuck to destroying cities in the belief the will of the German people would crack (experience of the British under German bombs being pretty much ignored). As odd as it sounds, these theories were still considered viable as late as Vietnam.

The book is a great read, if somewhat dry at times. But the thing about Hastings, he knows his subject and if you want to learn about something like Bomber Command, he is a good teacher.

Here's a link to the book:

Amazon.com: Bomber Command (Pan Grand Strategy): Max Hastings: Books

Hope you enjoy it.

 

[pbfoot]

Everyone is worried that this show will be revisionist history well since none of us have seen it we a judging it on some guy we don't know have never met opinion of the of the show . Yes Seesul war is a brutal and unforgiving affair I have relatives residing in cemeteries in Europe . I also know many vets from both sides and they've been there and done that I know guys that did not enjoy the hospitality of the Japanese , I've met RCAF guys that were interned in Bergen Belsen , and these guys deserve all the respect we can muster .
However I'll bet my ass that decisions made on both sides were sometimes the product of egos and vanity that caused undo hardship to the average guys on both sides suffered because of these vain fools

 

[Matt308]

It has been turned into the war over slavery. Yes, slavery was one of the reasons but that was somewhat later in the war when Lincoln made the Emancipation Proclamation. The present day media has pretty much suppressed the real reasons for that war. Don't get me wrong, I don't feel slavery is right, I do not believe it should be allowed in any way shape or form, but let's keep the history books correct.

Amen brother. As ugly as the truth is, we should not undertake historical revision for the risk of incurring the wrath of ignorance. And that is the most scary power in the world.

 

[Haztoys]

I'm American ...And really did not get into the Civil War alot until just some time ago ..We learned about it in school and all (i'm 43)...Was always much more into WW2.. So I really did some looking around on WW2..( Not that I'm even in same league on WW2 as most of you here)... But I was always thinking that the Civil War was mostly about slavery... ..

Once I did some looking it was not... .. So they most of been teaching us the BS in the Dark Ages when I was in school also...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I don't think it's that ridiculous Njaco, the reason being that it's true. Why else bomb the major cities when it was well known that the factories weren't located there ? Hitting the population has its own crippling effect.

Was Hitler's motives different? With London, Amsterdamn, Warsaw, St. Petersburg, etc. for example?

 

[Marcel]

Was Hitler's motives different? With London, Amsterdamn, Warsaw, St. Petersburg, etc. for example?

Being Dutch and having lived there, I must correct you and say it was Rotterdam, not Amsterdam that was bombed ... ...Sorry Chris, I just had to.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Being Dutch and having lived there, I must correct you and say it was Rotterdam, not Amsterdam that was bombed ... ...Sorry Chris, I just had to.

No problem, I was just naming off cities in allied countries.

I find it rather wiered that people always bring up the fact of the allied bombing, but fail to realize that Hitler was bombing civilian cities first.

 

[ToughOmbre]

I find it rather wiered that people always bring up the fact of the allied bombing, but fail to realize that Hitler was bombing civilian cities first.

All the way back to the Spanish Civil War. The Condor Legion bombed Guernica in 1937.

And the Japanese were dropping bombs on civilian population centers (Manila, Nanking to name a few) long before the first American bombs fell on the land of Nippon.

Payback is a bitch!

TO

 

[pbfoot]

All the way back to the Spanish Civil War. The Condor Legion bombed Guernica in 1937.

And the Japanese were dropping bombs on civilian population centers (Manila, Nanking to name a few) long before the first American bombs fell on the land of Nippon.

Payback is a bitch!

TO

go further cack to WW1 and the Zeppelins Gothas

 

[Marcel]

I find it rather wiered that people always bring up the fact of the allied bombing, but fail to realize that Hitler was bombing civilian cities first.

Agreed, but I think it's due to the fact that the allies were so much better at it. Also Hitlers bombing doesn't make good the mistakes made by bomber command and the USAAF. I think they were on a thin line using a strategy like that. This doesn't take away the fact that the NAZI's easily stepped over this line, though.

 

[Freebird]

Agreed, but I think it's due to the fact that the allies were so much better at it. Also Hitlers bombing doesn't make good the mistakes made by bomber command and the USAAF. I think they were on a thin line using a strategy like that. This doesn't take away the fact that the NAZI's easily stepped over this line, though.

Good point Marcel, I think the Allied bombing of German cities is harder to defend because it had little military effect. I have always felt that too much production was taken up by bombers, I think it would have been better use if they had made more fighters, escorts, ground attack maritime patrol.

But the heads of the British American Air Forces were big on Strategic bombing....

 

[Soren]

But that's one of the arguments that they use "But Stalin was as bad as Hitler"...

Considering the crimes he committed against his own countrymen, even the ones "liberated" in 44 45, he was probably worse than Hitler.

 

[JugBR]

Considering the crimes he committed against his own countrymen, even the ones "liberated" in 44 45, he was probably worse than Hitler.

stalin killed more than hitler, but mao tse tung killed even more. but sure, you have to pay ateption in the size of germany, size of soviet union and size of china.

i believe 1° mao tse tung, 2° hitler, 3° stalin these are the top 3 psychos !

 

[Marcel]

stalin killed more than hitler, but mao tse tung killed even more. but sure, you have to pay ateption in the size of germany, size of soviet union and size of china.

i believe 1° mao tse tung, 2° hitler, 3° stalin these are the top 3 psychos !

In no particular order. Also consider the time span in which they did it. I think Hitler was as bad as any of them.

 

[Negative Creep]

I have read the book in question and it is actually a very interesting read. I haven't seen the programme but I can see where it's coming from. A lot of people see WW2 as if it were a 1950's movie - Brits and USA all good and virtuous, Germans all evil Nazis whereas soldiers from all sides committed war crimes. Of course the war crimes of Germany and Japan were on a far greater scale than anything the Western Allies ever performed, but as historians they have a right and duty to explore all aspects.

The topic title is just sensationalism really as they do have a legitimate point. That said, it's my view (one which I would imagine is held by most people on here) that deportations, internment and bombing were a necessary evil and that in total war, normal rules morals and rights just don't apply

 

[Freebird]

Considering the crimes he committed against his own countrymen, even the ones "liberated" in 44 45, he was probably worse than Hitler.

Oh I think he was!

The point that I was making is that saying "Stalin was worse than Hitler" does not mean that "The Allies should not go to war with Germany"

 

[timshatz]

Not sure if I agree with the idea that everyone committed atrocities as a common currency for all armies during WW2. Doing so is a step in the logic that the Allies were no better than the Axis. It is an arguement based more on inference than actual fact.

While Allied troops did commit atrocities (Dachau, Stutgart, ect), they were isolated cases and not part of official policy. There were no orders written and signed by Ike, Monty or any other Western Allied General instructing the troops to massacre civilians or captured soliders. There were no orders calling for "extreme measures" or similar such as those sent to the Wermacht during the Battle of the Bulge (which were largely ignored by the German troops but not entirely ignored).

However, the Nazis exterminated civilians as a matter of course. The Sodercommando (sp?) were a unit designed to do just that. The objective was not done as an aim of winning the war (possible considered an unfortunate side affect of battle) but as an action of genocide.

Compared to the war in the East, the war in the West was generally fought within the bounds of some rules of war. With exception of units such as the SS, there were generally limitations. However, the underlying conduct of the powers involved (Allied and Axis) was completely different. And it is here that the arguement that the Allies and Axis were the same completely breaks down.

 

[Maestro]

I haven't read all of the tread, but here are my two cents...

Saying that the Allies are as bad as the Nazis is pure provocation. Of course there was war crimes commited on both sides, but ask yourself the questions :

Who started to bomb cities first ? Germans (First recorded bombing of a city in WWII being Wielun, Poland (September 1st 1939), destroying 75% of the city and killing close to 1,200 people.)
Who started to kill P.O.W.s first ? Germans (Invasion of Poland, September 1st - October 25th 1939.)

So you know, as someone stated earlier, payback is a bitch. They "accidently bombed" (yeah, sure... who can thrust a Nazi's word ?) a civilian area of London in 1940, the RAF replied by bombing Berlin and then they started to bomb London, Liverpool, Portsmouth and so on...

Then, a few years later, the RAF/USAAF wiped out Dresden... In my book, it was not a war crime, it was justice. A blind justice, but still justice.

And now some Neo-Nazi @ssholes in Germany wants the Queen to apologize for that bombing ? Are they f*cking retarded ? If I was the King of Great-Britain, I would never apologize... Even worse, I would call in the media and say something like : "So you want me to apologize for Dresden ? Sit on it, bitch ! (Give the finger to the camera.)" But once again, I've never hidden the fact that I'm a scumbag... Anyway, I'm getting off-topic here...

For the record : I'm glad the Queen has not apologized for Dresden.

So the Allies did some nasty things... Who cares ? It was greatly justified.