Percentage of Luftwaffe fighters with external cannon pods 1944-45?

[Conslaw]

We know that there were a variety of "U" and "R" kits for the FW-190 and the Bf-109, but does anyone have any figures on whether fighters with the external cannon (and rockets) were the exception vs. the rule? I'm thinking mainly of the time the American daylight bomber war escalated say, from October 1943 through May 1944. My pet theory is that the number of fighters with external cannon increased just as allied fighter protection rapidly increased, thus making the German fighters less competitive at just the wrong time. Does anyone have any facts and figures that might shed some light on this? Thanks.

 

[Escuadrilla Azul]

IIRC,, Galland in his memoirs state that the intended measure was 50/50, so half of the fighters would engage the escort and the other half engage the bombers, but don´t know if it was really achieved.

 

[Sturzkampfflugzeug]

It would depend on the aircraft and the gun type

 

[Mike Williams]

We know that there were a variety of "U" and "R" kits for the FW-190 and the Bf-109, but does anyone have any figures on whether fighters with the external cannon (and rockets) were the exception vs. the rule? I'm thinking mainly of the time the American daylight bomber war escalated say, from October 1943 through May 1944. My pet theory is that the number of fighters with external cannon increased just as allied fighter protection rapidly increased, thus making the German fighters less competitive at just the wrong time. Does anyone have any facts and figures that might shed some light on this? Thanks.

Interesting question. Sorry I don't have any precise numbers. Unfortunately Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen don't show the gondelwaffen types, however, perhaps of interest Bf 109G-6/U4 with 30 mm cannon start showing up in these records in spring 1944. The level speed hit when equipped with the gunpods wasn't that bad, ~7 mph - see Performance measurement ME 109 G-6 Tropical with DB 605 A; Influence of various attachments. Presumably climb and maneuverability would suffer somewhat. I have to think that the Wfr. Gr. 21 rocket equipped aircraft were pretty much sitting ducks though. Fwiw, these types appear to be listed in the Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen.

Browsing various Prien & Rodeike books shows widespread use of the gunpods from around spring 1943 into early 1944 on 109 G-4s & G-6s. One idea to consider would be that the introduction of the 30 mm motor cannon made the wing gunpods less important. Also installing AS and MW-50 engines in the summer of 44 suggests a changing role for the 109 - less of a bomber attacker and more as a counter to allied fighters as well as 190 defender.

 

[Mike Williams]

Just a note as a result of browsing through various Prien & Rodeike 109 books, usage of gunboats on the eastern front appears to have started earlier and lasted longer than on the western front. A more thorough examination is warranted. For example, JG 52 was equipped with G-2s with gondola mounted cannons in autumn 1942.

 

[Mike Williams]

I just found this interesting passage in Jadgeschwader 3 "Udet" in World War II, Stab & I./JG 3 in Action with the Messerschmitt Bf 109, page 240:

"On 1 May 1943 I/JG 3 had more than 30 Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-4's on strength at Mönchengladbach; during the month the Gruppe's strength was significantly bolstered by the allocation of the first twenty machines of the new G-6 series. In keeping with an air command directive, all of the Gruppe's aircraft were equipped with "gondola armament", meaning two additional MG 151/20 cannon mounted beneath the wings."

 

[Mike Williams]

More from Prien & Rodeike's I./JG 3 in Action with the Messerschmitt Bf 109, page 250:

"I/JG 3's deployment to France ended four days later on 8 January, for on this day orders were received for the Gruppe to return to the Reich, where this unit was to be based at Mönchengladbach once again. Henceforth it was to operate as a "high Group", which meant that its primary role would be that of engaging the heavy bombers' fighter escort... In preparation for this new role the underwing cannon previously carried by all the Gruppe's Messerschmitts were removed in order to make the aircraft lighter and more maneuverable for fighter-versus-fighter combat. With the 20-mm cannon beneath its wings the "Gustav" had little chance in a dogfight against the P-51 or even the less maneuverable P-47 and P-38."

 

[Mike Williams]

From II./JG 3: "Then, in January 1944, the Gruppe recieved a full compliment of the latest production version of the Bf 109 G-6. Unlike II/JG 3's previous equipment, from now on all aircraft were fitted with external mounts for drop tanks in order to increase the Gruppe's range and endurance. Underwing 20-mm cannon also became standard equipment on the Gruppe's aircraft."

 

[fubar57]

Great info Mike

 

[Mike Williams]

Great info Mike

Thanks fubar57, the opening post got my curiosity up and I'm enjoying pulling out my books and learning about this subject today.

 

[Mike Williams]

From Jochen Prien's Jagdeschwader 53, Volume 3: "In keeping with its role in the Defense of the Reich, II/JG 53 was equipped with an aircraft equipped to deal with American four-engine bombers, namely the Bf 109 G-6 with underwing cannon". I'm uncertain of beginning and ending dates when so equipped so far.

 

[Mike Williams]

Messerschmitt Bf 109 im Einsantz bei Stab und I./Jagdeschwader 27, Jochen Prien, Peter Rodeike, Gerhard Stemmer, page 360-361:

"Am 29. Juli 1943 traf die I.JG 27 mit dem fliegenden Verband in Münster-Handorf ein... Bei ihrem Eintreffen Münster-Handorf verfügte die I.JG 27 über insgesamt 40 Maschinen, davon je Hälfte Bf 109 G-4 und G-6; erstere sollten zwar auf dahingehenden Befehl sämtlich abgegeben und durch Bf 109 G-6 ersetzt werden, doch kam es dazu zunächst noch nicht, da die Ausbringung neuer Messerschmitts zu dieser Zeit nicht ausreichte, um die and den Fronten im Süden und über dem Reich geforderten Anzahlen neuer Maschinen der Baureihe G-6 bereitstellen zu können. Dafür waren alle Maschinen der I./JG 27, der seinerzeit bestehenden Forderung nach vollstärkter Bewaffnung zur wirksameren Bekämpfung der Viermotorigen entsprechend, mit zwei zusätzlichen 2 cm Mg 151/20 Kanonen unter den Tragflächen, der sogenannten "Gondelbewaffung", ausgerüstet."

Edit: adding associated footnote to above passage: lt. Aufzeichnungen Günther Lützow verfügte die I./JG 27 gemäss Morgenmeldung vom 13.8 in Münster über 32 / 26 Bf 109, sämtlich mit Gondelbewaffung. (Translation - According to the records of Günther Lützow, the I./JG 27 had 32/26 Bf 109s in Münster according to the morning report of August 13th, all with gondola armament.)

 

[Koopernic]

Interesting question. Sorry I don't have any precise numbers. Unfortunately Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen don't show the gondelwaffen types, however, perhaps of interest Bf 109G-6/U4 with 30 mm cannon start showing up in these records in spring 1944. The level speed hit when equipped with the gunpods wasn't that bad, ~7 mph - see Performance measurement ME 109 G-6 Tropical with DB 605 A; Influence of various attachments. Presumably climb and maneuverability would suffer somewhat. I have to think that the Wfr. Gr. 21 rocket equipped aircraft were pretty much sitting ducks though. Fwiw, these types appear to be listed in the Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen.

Browsing various Prien & Rodeike books shows widespread use of the gunpods from around spring 1943 into early 1944 on 109 G-4s & G-6s. One idea to consider would be that the introduction of the 30 mm motor cannon made the wing gunpods less important. Also installing AS and MW-50 engines in the summer of 44 suggests a changing role for the 109 - less of a bomber attacker and more as a counter to allied fighters as well as 190 defender.

Do you know why the wing canon were removed on the Me 109 F/G thereby forcing the use of gun pods when engaging bombers? It seems inexplicable given plans to reintroduce integrated MK108 wing canon in the Me 109K6?

 

[Conslaw]

Interesting question. Sorry I don't have any precise numbers. Unfortunately Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen don't show the gondelwaffen types, however, perhaps of interest Bf 109G-6/U4 with 30 mm cannon start showing up in these records in spring 1944. The level speed hit when equipped with the gunpods wasn't that bad, ~7 mph - see Performance measurement ME 109 G-6 Tropical with DB 605 A; Influence of various attachments. Presumably climb and maneuverability would suffer somewhat. I have to think that the Wfr. Gr. 21 rocket equipped aircraft were pretty much sitting ducks though. Fwiw, these types appear to be listed in the Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen.

Browsing various Prien & Rodeike books shows widespread use of the gunpods from around spring 1943 into early 1944 on 109 G-4s & G-6s. One idea to consider would be that the introduction of the 30 mm motor cannon made the wing gunpods less important. Also installing AS and MW-50 engines in the summer of 44 suggests a changing role for the 109 - less of a bomber attacker and more as a counter to allied fighters as well as 190 defender.

I'm in the process of reading Bill Marshall's new book on the P51B, which I highly recommend. 109s with the G-21 rocket mortars were a problem in the late summer and late fall of 1943, when luckily the P-47 came around to help things a bit. As you say, reading between the lines, the emphasis seemed to shift to planes with the cannon contained within the wings. In early 1944, FW_190 A5 and A6s with 4 cannon and 2 heavy MG were introduced, to be shortly followed by the even more heavily armored A8. But these seem to be coming in at the wrong time, as 1 P51B group became 2, became 4, and then started replacing the P-47 and P-38 groups on a regular basis, and these planes were no match for a P-51 or a 1944 vintage P-47.

 

[Mike Williams]

More snippets from Prien, et.al. regarding gondola and rocket equipped 109s:

Messerschmitt BF 109 im Einsantz bei Stab und I./Jagdeschwader 27, Jochen Prien, Peter Rodeike, Gerhard Stemmer, page 360-361:

Um diese Zeit (22 August 1943) erfolgte auch bei der I./JG 27 die Einführung einer neuen Waffe zur Bekämpfung der Viermotorigen: Die Maschinen der 2. Staffel erhielten je zwei BR 21 Werferrohre unter der Tragflächen im Austausch gegen die bis dahin bei allen "Gustavs" eingebauten Gondelkanonen; bei den BR21 handelte es sich um 21 cm Feststoffraketen, die aus den Nebelwerfergrantaten des heeres abgeleitet waren und with deren Hilfe die eng fliegenden Viermotpulks gesprengt werden sollten. Die Werferrohre waren jedoch allenfalls behelfsmässig auf den Luft/Luft Einsatz eingestellt; sie wurden ungelenkt verschossen, ohne dass es geeignete Zielvorrichtungen dafür gab, so dass die Treffgenauigkeit ausgesprochen dürftig war, und sie wiesen im Einsatz eine ganze Reihe von technischen Mängeln und Pannen, vor allem im Bereich der Elektrik, auf. Schliesslich bewirkten sie durch ihr erhebliches Gewicht eine deutliche Beeninträchtigung der Flugeigenschaften der Bf 109 G-6.

Messerschmitt BF 109 im Einsantz bei der II./Jagdeschwader 27, Jochen Prien, Peter Rodeike, Gerhard Stemmer, page 328:

In diesen Tagen (mid September 1943) wurden die Messerschmitts der 5. Staffel mit einer neuen Waffe zur Bekämpfung der Viermotorigen ausgerüstet: Die Maschinen erhielten je zwei zwei BR 21 Werferrohre unter der Tragflächen im Austausch gegen die bis dahin bei alden meisten "Gustavs" eingebauten Gondelkanonen.

Translations from google with minor tweaks

Around this time (August 22, 1943), the I./JG 27 also introduced a new weapon to combat the heavy bombers: The machines of the 2nd squadron each received two BR 21 launcher tubes under the wings in exchange for the "Gustavs" previously used which were all equipped with gondola cannons; The BR21 was a 21 cm solid rocket that was derived from the army's smoke launcher grenades and with the help of which the close-flying heavy bombers were to be blown up. The launcher tubes were, however, only temporarily set for air / air use; they were fired without guidance or suitable aiming devices, so that the accuracy was extremely poor, and they had a number of technical deficiencies and breakdowns, especially in the area of the electrical system. Finally, due to their considerable weight, they significantly impaired the flight characteristics of the Bf 109 G-6.

During these days (mid-September 1943) the Messerschmitts of the 5th Squadron (II./JG 27) were equipped with a new weapon to fight the heavy bombers: The machines were each given two two BR 21 launcher tubes under the wings in exchange for "Gustavs" that had mostly Gondola cannons installed up to then.

 

[Escuadrilla Azul]

Just a note as a result of browsing through various Prien & Rodeike 109 books, usage of gunboats on the eastern front appears to have started earlier and lasted longer than on the western front. A more thorough examination is warranted. For example, JG 52 was equipped with G-2s with gondola mounted cannons in autumn 1942.

It was needed in order to bring down the heavily armoured Il-2 Shturmovik since the standard armament of the Bf 109 wasn't enough to do the job.

The BR21 was a 21 cm solid rocket that was derived from the army's smoke launcher grenades and with the help of which the close-flying heavy bombers were to be blown up.

I have read it was derived from an Heer normal mortar grenade.

 

[Vincenzo]

the 21 cm was derived from a army 21 cm rocket, the german army called smoke launcher their rocket launcher

 

[tomo pauk]

Mike, thank you for the effort to extract & translate the very interesting paragraphs.

 

[Mike Williams]

Do you know why the wing canon were removed on the Me 109 F/G thereby forcing the use of gun pods when engaging bombers? It seems inexplicable given plans to reintroduce integrated MK108 wing canon in the Me 109K6?

You raise a good point Koopernic. I don't recall off hand the rational for the wing weapon choices on the 109. I'll keep that question in mind.

 

[Mike Williams]

Mike, thank you for the effort to extract & translate the very interesting paragraphs.

You're welcome Tomo, I had a pleasurable day reading, learning and sharing.