GreenKnight121
Senior Airman
- 740
- Mar 16, 2014
Pictures of Cold War aircraft. (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter syscom3
- Start date
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GreenKnight121
Senior Airman
- 740
- Mar 16, 2014
"City of Hobart". A missed opportunity... do you know what makes this aircraft so special?
Well, it's Avon powered - whereas we eventually went with the Atar.
A missed opportunity - some sources say no - claiming "the performance advantages of the Avon were not sufficiently great to warrant the extra expense and the engineering problems that would go with it."
There was also the an "accounting error" on SNECMA's behalf that tipped the scales in favour of the Atar. Have you heard that story?
And why it was called the Mirage IIIO....
Good shots guys!
Glider
Captain
The horror story of the Australian Mirage is something that I always wonder about.
Cost issues for instance over the use of the Avon. Australia already used the Avon in their version of the Sabre so any additional cost would almost certainly have been more than balanced out by cheaper training and support costs.
Performance. I haven't been able to find out in detail what the difference was but understand that the Avon powered aircraft was faster, had a much better climb, shorter field length, gun firing ceiling was over 10,000 ft higher, better combat manoeuvrability and approx 20% longer range. To counter this French offered the more powerful Atar 9K engine, but never delivered it.
Radar the Ferranti Airpass 2 multi mode radar was superior to the French Cyrano
Cannons The RAAF used the DEFTA not the Aden already in use in the Sabre. This resulted in ammunition problems as the RAAF spent A$519,000 on Ammunition as the French never gave them the licence to produce their own ammunition, whereas Australia had been producing Aden ammunition for years without any problems.
As I said a real horror story
Cost issues for instance over the use of the Avon. Australia already used the Avon in their version of the Sabre so any additional cost would almost certainly have been more than balanced out by cheaper training and support costs.
Performance. I haven't been able to find out in detail what the difference was but understand that the Avon powered aircraft was faster, had a much better climb, shorter field length, gun firing ceiling was over 10,000 ft higher, better combat manoeuvrability and approx 20% longer range. To counter this French offered the more powerful Atar 9K engine, but never delivered it.
Radar the Ferranti Airpass 2 multi mode radar was superior to the French Cyrano
Cannons The RAAF used the DEFTA not the Aden already in use in the Sabre. This resulted in ammunition problems as the RAAF spent A$519,000 on Ammunition as the French never gave them the licence to produce their own ammunition, whereas Australia had been producing Aden ammunition for years without any problems.
As I said a real horror story
- Thread starter
- #248
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Admiral Thomas B. Hayward, U.S. Navy Chief of Naval Operations, in flight gear, prepares to board an A-6 Intruder aircraft that will take him to the aircraft carrier USS Midway (CVA-41) for a visit, 8 September 1981.
Horror story sounds like an exaggeration - the Mirage III was one of the most successful combat aircraft of the Cold war era.
Some of the original Mirage III purchased by the Australians are still actively flying today in the Pakistani Air Force - they most be up to 50 years old?
Mind you - Mirage III had a very poor safety record in Australian service - lots of crashes and write-offs
Glider
Captain
There is no doubt that you are correct in what you say, but from a cost and performance perspective it was a horror story for the RAAF
- Thread starter
- #251
syscom3
Pacific Historian
September 10th 1971: Soviet Air Force Marshal Koutakhov sits in a French Air Force Dassault Mirage 111 jet fighter at Reims Champagne air base, France.
A couple of mine 
Buccaneers Bruntingthorpe trio by Tony Taylor, on Flickr
Buccaneers Bruntingthorpe 2012 by Tony Taylor, on Flickr
Buccaneer 020 roll by Tony Taylor, on Flickr
Buccaneer by Tony Taylor, on Flickr
Lightning braking 2 by Tony Taylor, on Flickr
Lightning reheat by Tony Taylor, on Flickr
QRA Lightning and crew by Tony Taylor, on Flickr
hope you like, I have lots more
hope you like, I have lots more
You'll spill your tea when you find out why the Israeli Mirages were named Mirage IIICJs...
Yup, it's a good one, managed to hoodwink the Americans. One of the CAC reps had been in France and had almost certainly made their mind up about the Mirage in favour of the F-104, requested that on the way home he should stop into Lockheed in Burbank, to which he was told by the French rep, a fella named Waquet (odd, since Laurie Wackett started the CAC, but anyway...) to tell Lockheed that he thought the Mirage was rubbish! This allayed Lockheed's suspicions, but the deal had already been done, the 'low' cost of the Atar being a factor, so it's said!
Interesting to note that Ronnie Harker, Rolls-Royce's Military Aviation Advisor was in communication with Australia about the Avon in the Mirage and he'd been in touch with Waquet (presumably Wackett as well!) about it and was keen, he of the suggestion that the North American Mustang I undergoing evaluation after arriving in Britain should be fitted with a Merlin engine, which started something, although he did comment that it looked a bit like a Messerschmitt Bf 109 because its designer had worked for Messerschmitt, even though he hadn't, but he can be let off that for getting Rolls-Royce to put a Merlin in the type, thus changing its fortunes...
Perhaps he should have been more persuasive with the Australians and the Avon...
GreenKnight121
Senior Airman
- 740
- Mar 16, 2014
According to the Australian Serials & RAAF History sites:
So basically, the French sold the Australians on the Atar-9K, but only delivered the weaker -9C.
Looking at the history of the Mirage IIIs in RAAF service, the ATAR 9C was the cause of several accidents and fatalities (but then, so were almost all engines of that generation).
I don't know where this image came from (found it somewhere on the internet), nor who made the statement quoted... but if true, then....
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Some Cold War Warriors on display at the RAF Museum Cosford...
Royal Danish Air Force PBY-6A.
DSC_0343
Secret Squirrel Nimrod R.1. The RAF for many years officially denied the existence of the unit that operated these aircraft. Also took part in the Falklands War as a standard Nimrod MR.2 maritime recon aircraft before conversion to an electronic warfare platform.
DSC_0346
Inside the Cold War building, for which the museum was granted special funding for developing a Cold War-themed museum, but in reality, the museum used the money purely so it could get its bigger aircraft undercover.
DSC_0359
Vickers Valiant that dropped the British hydrogen bomb during Operation Grapple, a Yellow Sun bomb casing alongside.
DSC_0354
Canberra PR.9.
DSC_0353
The first Eastern Bloc aircraft to go on public display in the UK, a Polish built SB Lim-2 that was acquired in 1986 and made its public debut at the RAF Museum at Hendon that year.
DSC_0363
Vulcan XM598 was a backup aircraft to XM607 during the Operation Black Buck raids, attacks on Argentine held Port Stanley Airport during the Falklands War.
DSC_0357
The clever part of the British deployed Polaris A3 missiles, its Chevaline warhead carrier, a self-contained spacecraft, which manoeuvred itself into position before deploying its warheads using retro rocket motors around its base, not visible in this image, it could also launch decoy flares to deter anti-ballistic missile defences. Quite possibly one of the most ambitious and expensive aerospace projects the British developed during the Cold War that no one's ever heard of...
DSC_0383
Twin Pioneer in front of a Belslow.
DSC_0404
Hunter T.7, I like the attitudes of the suspended aircraft, they make great photography subjects.
DSC_0412
See! Lightning.
DSC_0375
Bristol Britannia.
DSC_0723
More images here in case you're interested.
Royal Danish Air Force PBY-6A.
Secret Squirrel Nimrod R.1. The RAF for many years officially denied the existence of the unit that operated these aircraft. Also took part in the Falklands War as a standard Nimrod MR.2 maritime recon aircraft before conversion to an electronic warfare platform.
Inside the Cold War building, for which the museum was granted special funding for developing a Cold War-themed museum, but in reality, the museum used the money purely so it could get its bigger aircraft undercover.
Vickers Valiant that dropped the British hydrogen bomb during Operation Grapple, a Yellow Sun bomb casing alongside.
Canberra PR.9.
The first Eastern Bloc aircraft to go on public display in the UK, a Polish built SB Lim-2 that was acquired in 1986 and made its public debut at the RAF Museum at Hendon that year.
Vulcan XM598 was a backup aircraft to XM607 during the Operation Black Buck raids, attacks on Argentine held Port Stanley Airport during the Falklands War.
The clever part of the British deployed Polaris A3 missiles, its Chevaline warhead carrier, a self-contained spacecraft, which manoeuvred itself into position before deploying its warheads using retro rocket motors around its base, not visible in this image, it could also launch decoy flares to deter anti-ballistic missile defences. Quite possibly one of the most ambitious and expensive aerospace projects the British developed during the Cold War that no one's ever heard of...
Twin Pioneer in front of a Belslow.
Hunter T.7, I like the attitudes of the suspended aircraft, they make great photography subjects.
See! Lightning.
Bristol Britannia.
More images here in case you're interested.
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