Post WW2 Opportunities Lost by the Navy

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How could the USN know in Oct 1947 that an F-86 deriviative would be a better bet than the F7U? It had nothing to compare it to until the F7U flew for the first time on 29 Sept 1948.




QUOTE]How could the USN know in Oct 1947 that an F-86 deriviative would be a better bet than the F7U? It had nothing to compare it to until the F7U flew for the first time on 29 Sept 1948.[/QUOTE]
The F-86 was the FIRST standard American aircraft to be proposed with swept wings. The F7U was a rather non-standard aircraft. So I suspect that there was a lot of interest in the design from any cleared aerospace engineer. I would be surprised if North American did not provide the Navy with design-to performance. When the plane started flying in October, it would not be long before flight test point were compared to designed points and validated their expectation. I am sure that they were excited when they realized the XF-86 was 70 mph faster than the FJ-1 at altitude with the same thrust engine, and over 50 mph faster than much other, more powerful, proposed fighters. And, when they realized that the XP-86 approach speed fell within the approach speeds of other Navy jets, I would be willing to bet that they ran to the Navy with this information, hoping the Navy would recognize what they had. However, the Navy was betting on the F7U-1, which was still two years and five months away from first flight, was not interested. So, the F7U was most likely a double curse. First it failed to live up to its promises, and second, may have prevented the Navy from pursuing a much needed Korean War fighter, the FJ-2/3 two years, until the Mig-15 forced their hand.

So, to answer your first question, they would not have known the F7U would turn out to be a turkey, but the FJ-2 performance would be significantly better than the F2H and F9F and was basically in the same procurement cycle. Certainly, for Korea, the FJ-2 would have been available for the Marines from land bases, and who knows, maybe the Navy pilots, jealous of the AF and Marines, would have found a way to use the FJ-2 on carriers, as did the Brits with the F4U in WW2. So, in hind sight, the only sight I have, I think the best decision for the Navy in early '48 would be to continue the work on the F&U, buy more F2Hs, which were already flying, and seemed to perform better than the proposed F9F, cancel the F9F, it was never going to be a war winner in any form, build the FJ-2/3. The Navy would have been ready for the Korean War, and the Mig-15. And have a fighter that could take them to the F8U. Well, throw in a couple of mediocre supersonic jets, the skyray, tiger, and disappointing Demon.

You also assume that a navalised F-86 in 1948/49 would have the same performance as the USAAF F-86 that saw service in Korea from late 1950. That will undoubtedly be untrue. Navalising a land based aircraft always comes with some cost.

I didn't assume anything. Having worked with the F-18A in converting it to a land based F-18L, I am well aware of Naval requirements over land based requirements including much stronger gear, strengthening structure to adapt hook and to endure hard landings, a Navy specialty. Data shows the FJ-2 which is the navalized F-86 to be about 2000 lb heavier. This had little effect on top speed but did affect climb rate, about 70% less than F-86, but was still faster than the Mig-15 and certainly more competitive than other Navy jets. The FJ-3 with upgraded engines would probably not become available until after the F-86F, and probably not make the war.
 
QUOTE]That was apparent from your comment about carrier refuelling taking place overnight.[/QUOTE]
I didn't think that sounded right but didn't have time to research. Besides everyone knows you can trust the internet.


Yeah, I can see a couple of AF F-86 pilots and a couple of Navy F9F pilots in a Yokota Air Base (Tokyo) O Club at the bar, discussing the war. AF pilot "Two days ago we spotted two Migs heading home and turned to engage I took the lead and my wing took the Mig wing. We had altitude on them and quickly put them on the defensive. My guy tried to dive away. Big mistake, no Mig's gonna out dive a Sabre, I caught him and gunned him, my third kill! The other Mig tried to climb away. Boy those Migs can climb! No Sabre is gonna catch a Mig in a climb. He got away. How's your war going?" Navy pilot "Great! Straffed three trucks and dropped a bomb on an encampment". AF pilot, "Oh..uh..yeah..great".


I know the US was working with the Brits on the angled deck. I think they even tried it out on a Brit carrier, maybe wrong. The Antietam was stationed in Pensacola when I was a boy, being used as a carrier check out for carrier quals. It seemed like every time they went out for carrier quals they would lose a plane and pilot. Those were the days when yellow SNJ flew overhead.


Yes. It is always easier to bet on a game when you know the outcome. When the Air Force can launch a single aircraft and attack from 1400 miles away and erase a city, it takes all the air (and money) out of the room, a lot of re-planning was on-going. I am sure they had a reason for doing what they did, and by Vietnam, the Navy had superb aircraft to execute that kind of war.
 
From the end of the war to the Korean War, changes in aircraft and engines were slow due to tight money. Changes from start of Korean War into the fifties were breath taking. It went just breaking the sound barrier in 1947 to twice the speed of sound in 1954. Thrust went from 5-6000 lbs at the start of the Korean War, 1950, to over 20,000 lbs mid to late 50s.
 

Very true but was a lot of background work that went on. Some of those 5-6000lb thrust engines in 1950 had been not only under 4000lbs in 1947 they also had been at 15 hours of overhaul life. They were well over 100 hours in 1950 and hitting 500-600 hours in 1954. You can work on those 20,000lb thrust engines once you know you can get the 5-6000thrust engines to last more than a few flights .
You also didn't need to by engines by the hundreds (if not thousands) in the 1940s to figure out what was going wrong.
It took 4-5 years to get an engine from start of work to production in the late 40s and through the 50s. It had taken 4-5 years to get most big piston engines into production in the 30s and early 40s.
P&W had started work the same month in 1940 on the R-2800 "C" series engine and the R-4360 engine for example and it took until mid 1944 and into 1945 respectively to the get the engines into service. A lot of the jets were the same way. P & W started work on what would become the J-57 turbo jet in late 1947. It stared as a turbo-prop. It didn't fly until March 1951 under a Boeing B-50 bomber. It took another 3 years to get really sorted out.
A lot of money helps but just like you can't make a baby in one month by have 9 women pregnant a lot of these engines (and air frames and electronics) took a while to come together.
 
Starting in the early 50s there was a significant increase in market pressure, both military, competition with the USSR was heated, and commercial, to provide engines with increased power and reliability. Economic growth demanded more and more advanced homes, cars, vacations, free time. All of this poured money into many different technologies, including aerospace. As a results, by the mid to late 50s engines had pretty well hit the 90 percentile, my estimate, performance. The last 10% would be much more expensive. I had experience with two engines, of this era, both easily met my expectations in modern jet performance. The J-85 in the T-38 was incredibly small, compressor blades were almost like razor blades, spun up fast, reliable, and gave a reassuring kick with the after burner. The other engine, in the C-141, the TF-33 (JT3D), was amazing. The C-141 had as much thrust on three engines as the KC-135 had on all four (JT3C?) and we grossed out at the same weight, and it would run on any JP fuel and, avgas(!). Nice to know when you are refueling in Abidjan, Ivory Coast, on an emergency air evac flight. Engine replacement time? 10,000 hours! It would run 30 minutes with no oil pressure. In four year of flying in war operations, flying tag team crews (new crews took aircraft with old crew going into crew rest, aircraft flew almost continuously), I heard of only one engine in the fleet having to be shut down, this due to oil pressure. It had over 9900 hours on the engine. This is all in the early seventies. Today, I am amazed at the size and power of jet engines. One Boeing 777 engine generates more thrust than all four of the C-141 engines combined.
 
Very interesting thread, thanks.
And I just remembered Navy pilot Royce Williams. His encounter with MiG-15s was discussed here in Korean war related threads.
That's a very interesting story and implies classified activities going on that really manifested itself in the Vietnam war. I am reading a book called "Unlikely Warriors" about the Army Security Agency activities in Vietnam and their classified activities at the time. A lot went on that we never knew. My brother was in that agency during the war but never talked about it. They had their own boot camp.
 

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