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I wonder if those were a valid comparison. Large numbers of Cessna 150s escaped the flight training regime entirely, while I don't recall there being many privately owned PA38s. We had a number of 150 owners around the field who could have afforded bigger planes but chose their bird for its low operating cost, as they'd rather go flying every evening than spend the week working overtime to afford to take a Skyhawk, Skylane, Arrow, or Bonanza out on Saturday. Besides the 150 would comfortably drop into those little grass strip pancake breakfasts that the faster birds found kind of tight. These folks built time on their 150s near as fast as the flight school did.The 38' had a fatal accident rate that was, as I recall, six times that of the C-150 series; that's using the FAA's per 100,000 hours flown statistical model.
Recovery from a spin is power off, opposite rudder, nose down right?
Those were reliable numbers Wes.I wonder if those were a valid comparison. Large numbers of Cessna 150s escaped the flight training regime entirely, while I don't recall there being many privately owned PA38s. We had a number of 150 owners around the field who could have afforded bigger planes but chose their bird for its low operating cost, as they'd rather go flying every evening than spend the week working overtime to afford to take a Skyhawk, Skylane, Arrow, or Bonanza out on Saturday. Besides the 150 would comfortably drop into those little grass strip pancake breakfasts that the faster birds found kind of tight. These folks built time on their 150s near as fast as the flight school did.
Cheers,
Wes
The fleet sizes were statistically weighted.Those were reliable numbers Wes.
Got it. Thanks!The fleet sizes were statistically weighted.
Was that the AA-1, or its predecessor, the BD-1? Was that spin the reason they would never give "Bigmouth Jim" a type certificate for his everyman's airplane? I remember reading exciting articles about how everyone would have one in their garage. At the time I thought it a bureaucratic travesty, but eventually came to realize why the powers that be would consider a "volksflugzug" a scary thought.they took a very bad spinning airplane, Grumman AA-1, and created one which would spin nicely
No idea about the BD-1. BMJ was an innovator and promoter from my recall. Just know about the NACA spin related work on the Yankee. Like many good ideas, that poor little bird had some unintended negatives. I never had the opportunity to fly the 2- seaters, only the 4-seat versions. My recall is they were cramped for tall guys like me, powered adequately and were neutrally stable making them mediocre trainers and an airplane the "average" pilot had to pay close attention too.Was that the AA-1, or its predecessor, the BD-1? Was that spin the reason they would never give "Bigmouth Jim" a type certificate for his everyman's airplane? I remember reading exciting articles about how everyone would have one in their garage. At the time I thought it a bureaucratic travesty, but eventually came to realize why the powers that be would consider a "volksflugzug" a scary thought.
Eventually got to fly a Yankee and realized how underpowered it felt with an O-235; can't imagine it with an A65.
Cheers,
Wes
With a Cessna 150/152 spin recovery first you release the back pressure. Actually shoving the nose down is not recommended, although that is what I did the one time I entered a spin semi-accidentally. Then you apply opposite rudder and roll to the opposite direction, which usually is going to be to the Right, especially if you have any power in. You do not roll before you release back pressure and break the stall because the ailerons will make the stalled condition worse on the wing you are trying to raise. Some people even say you do not use the ailerons at all until you have used the rudder to get the airplane rolling in the opposite direction. Some airplanes do not have washout on the outer wings or differential ailerons and using the ailerons will make things worse.
Several years back locally we lost a pilot and her brother when they went out in Cessna 152 and stalled/spun, apparently while circling a lake in a remote area. Doing steep turns while looking at something on the ground is one of the best ways to have a stall/spin creep up on you.
The A-7D has a problem that it can stall and then enter a "post stall gyration." If it is in a post stall gyration rather than a spin and the pilot applies standard spin recovery techniques it will never come out of the spin. There was a proposal to install a device that would automatically detect a post stall gyration and activate a flap to recover, but I do not think this was ever installed on USAF aircraft. I heard about the A-7D problem because it was proposed that a modification of that same box would enable us to replace an F-106A component that had been in service so long we no longer had any spare parts or adequate technical data for it. So I got the prototype A-7D box and was going around SM-ALC getting into F-106A nose gear wheel wells to see if it would fit.
Not just the A7. The F4 ACM training squadron I used to work with had fairly frequent "departures from controlled flight" as over-eager nugget aviators tried to bend the laws of physics to get a Sidewinder tone on those pesky A4s. The F4 had an anything but straight forward post stall gyration, and a misdiagnosis and inappropriate recovery technique tended to lead to a unrecoverable flat spin and a Martin-Baker landing. The gyration was characterized in NATOPS as "irregular oscillations about all three axis accompanied by random gross fluctuations of rate of turn, coordination, airspeed, and AOA indicators". The instructor RIOs were all expert spin recovery coaches, and were granted "silver tongue award" patches for their "dirty shirt" flight suit for each save.The A-7D has a problem that it can stall and then enter a "post stall gyration." If it is in a post stall gyration rather than a spin and the pilot applies standard spin recovery techniques it will never come out of the spin.
My sentiments exactly!!It prevented one of the best trainers ever made from being used due to the idiotic weight limit imposed by the LSA rule. Trainer? The Cessna 150/152 series airplanes.
My sentiments exactly!!
Its considered an acrobatic maneuver by the FAA. When I was teaching people in Cessna 150, 152, 172 they ALL knew spin recovery. Though the 172 generally needed a shot of power and rudder to start otherwise would just rumble. CFI required a 3 turn spin and recovery in the log book, but its not legal in anything but an aerobatic a/c IIRC. The FFA check ride guys were not interested in actually doing it in my experience. I had a solo student who developed bad habit of dynamiting the left rudder when the A/C stalled. He did this twice on one dual flight so I had him take me up to 5000, this was sea level ANC, AK and had him do me a power on stall. The 150 rolled over on its back then started a normal spin. He broke the spin before it made one turn since we had done them before, but now we were headed straight down and he was screaming. I pulled the power and told him if he did not pull out we would hit the trees (the Spuce trees looked perfectly round out the wind screen). He did a nice pull out with me making sure he did and Wilmer (yeah) never did this again. I again told him what the mistake was and that stalls were not dangerous or even scary when done right. However, from my experience with 3365J when I was a young primary pilot building my solo time, one could scare one's self in a C-150. So I taught spin recovery to everyone. Probably did with the Cherokees too but don't remember much less time in them.I thought spin recovery was part of pilot training? Especially with propellers and torque & p-factor.
I started flight school in 1971 when I got out of the Army and spins were not taught then. Don't know when it was dropped. When I was flying it was illegal to do them in an a/c not certified for acrobatics. But CFI candidates had to do a 3 turn spin and recover and have it in the log so...Curriculum = Practical Test Standards is the proper term but now known as "Airman Certification Standards." Removed sometime in the 1970s IIRC
Back then there was a "carve out" in the FARs that allowed certain "acrobatic" maneuvers (chandelles, lazy 8s, steep 720s, spins: your classic "commercial maneuvers") to be done in Utility Category Aircraft, IF they were MANUFACTURER APPROVED for THAT AIRCAFT and were REQUIRED for a LICENSE or RATING and were conducted ONLY WHILE FLIGHT TRAINING.But CFI candidates had to do a 3 turn spin and recover and have it in the log so...