Questions About Japanese Air Power - 1943

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

At least I can still get a h-rd on...just kidding so don't take it personal!

Well considering I only in my late 30's, and my wife is pregnant, I am sure I can too. So yeah, no offense taken...

 

[VBF-13]

Hi VBF, I like a lot of what you are saying here but I think you meant to say that it couldn't roll very well. The Hellcat was one of the better turning aircraft of the war.

Hey Darren, I meant they turned too wide. The lighter A6Ms had a better radius, they could turn inside the heavier F6Fs.

 

[Milosh]

I give you Elsie MacGill - Wikipedia

 

[DarrenW]

Well considering I only in my late 30's, and my wife is pregnant, I am sure I can too. So yeah, no offense taken...

Wow, a youngster! And congratulations on the baby!

 

[DarrenW]

Hey Darren, I meant they turned too wide. The lighter A6Ms had a better radius, they could turn inside the heavier F6Fs.

Fair enough!!!

 

[KiwiBiggles]

Plus, the F6Fs could take more punishment. Just wing an A6M, it's a cripple.

Working from this, what was the normal behaviour when a fighter was hit? My feeling is that any pilot, no matter how robust his machine, when hit is going to remove himself from the fight as soon as possible. I really can't see an F6F pilot getting a couple of hits from a A6M and thinking "Hey, it's just a Zeke, I'll carry on because I'm in a tougher machine". The crippling hit on an A6M's wing is going to be no more terminal in the immediate case than the same hit on an F6F's wing.

 

[pbehn]

Working from this, what was the normal behaviour when a fighter was hit? My feeling is that any pilot, no matter how robust his machine, when hit is going to remove himself from the fight as soon as possible. I really can't see an F6F pilot getting a couple of hits from a A6M and thinking "Hey, it's just a Zeke, I'll carry on because I'm in a tougher machine". The crippling hit on an A6M's wing is going to be no more terminal in the immediate case than the same hit on an F6F's wing.

True but things work a little differently. If an aircraft is hit and on fire the pilot will normally bale out. However with the difference in fire power and construction statistically the Zeke was much more likely to be hit and catch fire for many reasons.

In the BoB the Hurricane was slightly more likely to be hit than a Spitfire, if hit, it was slightly more likely to burst into flames, if it burst into flames it was more likely to burn the pilot. Put all this together and although there were more Hurricanes than Spitfires in the conflict the number of Hurricane pilots lost or burned so badly they never flew again or didn't for months/years was a huge order of magnitude higher.

 

[Shortround6]

Working from this, what was the normal behaviour when a fighter was hit? My feeling is that any pilot, no matter how robust his machine, when hit is going to remove himself from the fight as soon as possible. I really can't see an F6F pilot getting a couple of hits from a A6M and thinking "Hey, it's just a Zeke, I'll carry on because I'm in a tougher machine". The crippling hit on an A6M's wing is going to be no more terminal in the immediate case than the same hit on an F6F's wing.

This may depend on the pilot and how into the fight he is. Once he stops getting hit does he have time to "evaluate" the plane, ie, is it on fire?, is the engine still working? are the flight controls still working/responding? Is the plane yawing or pulling to one side to large degree? If not then carry on with the fight. Or extend evaluation. Gauges all normal? any visible leaks (fuel, oil or coolant) no major holes in wings or parts of aircraft visible?

Many pilots did carry on the fight after hits from machineguns. Some pilots may have carried on after hits from 20mm cannon but I can't think of any offhand.

It may also depend on the location of the fight. F6F 200 miles from home? or over his own fleet defending the carrier he may have to land on in 20-30 minutes?

 

[VBF-13]

Working from this, what was the normal behaviour when a fighter was hit? My feeling is that any pilot, no matter how robust his machine, when hit is going to remove himself from the fight as soon as possible. I really can't see an F6F pilot getting a couple of hits from a A6M and thinking "Hey, it's just a Zeke, I'll carry on because I'm in a tougher machine". The crippling hit on an A6M's wing is going to be no more terminal in the immediate case than the same hit on an F6F's wing.

These Meatballs were built for one thing, offense. At their altitude, they dominated. It took the element of surprise and some slick tactics and skills for the F4Fs to just stay with them. But therein was their vulnerability, too...

 

[Greg Boeser]

While the Zero did have amazing turning ability, at least in the early fighting, the Japanese preferred zoom and boom tactics. Dive down on the target, shoot it up, extend away, then climb and do it again. Thanks to its excellent acceleration and climb rate this was a good tactic, until Allied pilots figured out how to counter it. Once the higher powered allied aircraft arrived on scene, the Japanese had to adapt.

 

[parsifal]

In the hands of a good pilot, a zeke remained a dangerous opponent. Put two good pilots up against each other, one in a Zeke and one in a hellcat, its going to be close, but my prejudices influence me to think that the Zeke was more the experts mount, whereas the hellcat was just more survivable and overall could be well flown by both novice and expert alike. The clincher was the ability of the hellcat to take punishment.

ive never flown, so I would very much like to hear to any pilots that have been in harms way at any time. I don't agree that a pilot with a damaged bird would cut and run if he can. He is part of a team, with a set mission, and will continue with that mission until no longer able, or ordered to pull out of the gunline. this is certainly the case on the ground for grunts. it would show a lack of training and discipline for a jockey to act any other way

 

[eagledad]

Gentlemen,

I put together a spreadsheet of P-38 victories by the 5th and 13th Air Forces by month and Squadrons. To determine what Squadrons were operational, I used the books Lockheed P-38 Lightning by Jerry Scutts and P-38 Lightning Aces of the Pacific and CBI by John Stanaway. For victory credits, I used USAF Study 85. I know that Study 85 has its problems, but that is the best I have.

I come up with about 350 credits by the 5th and 13th Air Forces in the time frame December 1942 thru the end of August 1943.

Any corrections or additions are welcomed.

Eagledad

 

[GrauGeist]

Lt. Nishizawa, one of Japan's leading aces, accrued all of his victories in the A6M - right through 1944 with an A6M5 attached to the 201st Kōkūtai.

Two days before his death, he downed two F6Fs and in a twist of irony, Hellcats from VF-14 downed the KI-49 transport he was aboard, ober Mindoro Island, as they were being transported to Luzon for replacement A6Ms.

So this will add gravity to the argument that the Zero may have been dated, but in the hands of a skilled pilot, was still to be respected.

In regards to damage to an aircraft, breaches in the skin will disrupt the airflow, causing drag. Bullet holes may not cause much drag, but cannon rounds were known to rip large holes in an aircraft's surface. The more damage, the higher the drag. Add to that, damage to aerleron surfaces will diminish the aircraft's handling. Damage to an oil-cooled aircraft can often obscure the pilot's view by covering the windscreen and canopy surfaces, making flight extremely difficult, not to mention the potential for the engine to overheat and seize within a certain amount of time.

So it all depends on the aircraft type, the extent of damage, where the battle is commencing and who's flying it...

 

[DarrenW]

Gentlemen,

I put together a spreadsheet of P-38 victories by the 5th and 13th Air Forces by month and Squadrons. To determine what Squadrons were operational, I used the books Lockheed P-38 Lightning by Jerry Scutts and P-38 Lightning Aces of the Pacific and CBI by John Stanaway. For victory credits, I used USAF Study 85. I know that Study 85 has its problems, but that is the best I have.

I come up with about 350 credits by the 5th and 13th Air Forces in the time frame December 1942 thru the end of August 1943.

Any corrections or additions are welcomed.

Eagledad

You really came through for me Eagledad! This is truly the kind of research that I admire and respect!

 

[DarrenW]

Lt. Nishizawa, one of Japan's leading aces, accrued all of his victories in the A6M - right through 1944 with an A6M5 attached to the 201st Kōkūtai.

Two days before his death, he downed two F6Fs and in a twist of irony, Hellcats from VF-14 downed the KI-49 transport he was aboard, ober Mindoro Island, as they were being transported to Luzon for replacement A6Ms.

So this will add gravity to the argument that the Zero may have been dated, but in the hands of a skilled pilot, was still to be respected.

In regards to damage to an aircraft, breaches in the skin will disrupt the airflow, causing drag. Bullet holes may not cause much drag, but cannon rounds were known to rip large holes in an aircraft's surface. The more damage, the higher the drag. Add to that, damage to aerleron surfaces will diminish the aircraft's handling. Damage to an oil-cooled aircraft can often obscure the pilot's view by covering the windscreen and canopy surfaces, making flight extremely difficult, not to mention the potential for the engine to overheat and seize within a certain amount of time.

So it all depends on the aircraft type, the extent of damage, where the battle is commencing and who's flying it...

The F6F was tough....and so were its pilots. A friend of mine who flew the Hellcat handed me this photo of his aircraft's port wing which was heavily damaged during attacks on enemy forces in Leyte Gulf. Flying back to his carrier, he struggled greatly to keep the airplane from spinning into the sea but was fortunately able to make a good trap. He told me the wing was replaced due to the extensive damage.

 

[DarrenW]

I come up with about 350 credits by the 5th and 13th Air Forces in the time frame December 1942 thru the end of August 1943.

I find it unusually coincidental that Army Lightnings and Marine Wildcats/Corsairs achieved very similar results during the same basic time period.

 

[KiwiBiggles]

I don't dispute that the F6F, along with most other Allied and German fighters, was able to return to base with carrying an astonishing amount of damage, and that most Japanese fighters did not have the same robustness. However, I see this robustness as primary a strategic advantage; you don't end up losing so many pilots, so your experience level improves. Tactically, I think it adds little.

With minor damage, like a few 303 rounds through the rear fuselage or outer wing panels, I'm sure the pilot would give the stick a wiggle, and if all seemed OK then he would carry on. But the damage shown in Post 75 above would remove the F6F from the combat just as surely as it would an A6M or any other fighter.

 

[parsifal]

The high survival rates has a bit to do with the toughness of the aircraft, but this was not the major reason for the higher survival rates amongst USN flyers.

The USN viewed their pilots as a valuable resource, to be conserved at all costs. To this end the USN went to extraordinary lengths to rescue downed aircrews. But it went further than that. Because the USN was inherently larger than the IJN, including its air services and more relevantly because of its massive reserves that had been built up pre-war and in the opening months of the war, they were able set up proper crew rotations, in which whole units could be relieved and the units rebuilt on the basis of meaningful surviving cadres. The result was that with the passage of time, the USN built up not only a massive numerical advantage, but also a qualitative one as well.

This process was well under way by the end of guadacanal. The arrival of the hellcat facilitated that process, but in no way was it a necessary requirement. By November 1943, when the hellcat began to have a meaningful impact, air superiority had well and truly passed to the allies.

In comparison, everything the USN thought was valuable the IJN tended to discount. They gave scant regard to the SAR role for downed pilots. The shortages of shipping and scarcity of numbers from the outset meant that elite units were left at the front to "wither on the vine" providing no cadre of experience to the units that followed. Certainly the Zeke was of ultra lightweight construction and fairly flammable as well, but this card has tended to be overplayed in the post war apologies for its failure. There are simply too many documented instances of Zekes taking heavy punishment and getting home alive for this one thing to be blamed for the entire failure of the whole system.

 

[Hoosier Hot Shot]

I'll go back to the start of this one. According to the pilots we see every month at the Planes of Fame, the Hellcat DID break the back of the Japanese because, for the first time, we had a plane that could out-climb the Zero and almost turn with it even when the Zero was at it's best turn rate. If the Zero was NOT at its best turn rate, the Hellcat could turn with or out-turn the Zero.

This does NOTHING to diminish the accomplishments of the F4F and P-38 pilots who went before the Hellcat, but they did NOT wipe out all the Japanese Navy's best pilots. Many were still there even through the end of the war. Just not as many as they started with. You could not convince Boyington or others I spoke with they were shot down by rookies.

When the Hellcat arrived, it was faster than the Zero, could out-accelerate it, out-climb it, was adequately armed, had pilots that were well-trained even if not quite hard-bitten veterans, and could linger to the point that fuel was not an issue in combat for either side. That last means both sides could stand and fight or run away if possible. It wasn't like the Germans over the UK where they had only a few minutes before they had to leave or run out of fuel on the way home. Also, the US Navy tended for fly in groups of 4 or 8 (one or two flights), much as the Japanese did, and most of the engagements were of the 4 vs. 4, 4 vs. 8, or 8 vs. 8 variety where neither side was really outnumbered so badly that many had a great chance of escape if only by virtue of the sheer number of targets in the sky. Instead, the targets were few enough that a good, solid dogfight was the order of the day a LOT of the time versus the ETO.

This put the Japanese at a distinct disadvantage for the first time since the Hellcat was a MUCH better dogfighter than either the P-38 or the F4F. The Hellcat was a VERY good fighter and would have acquitted itself well anywhere. In a dogfight, top speed is not important. What IS important is maneuverability, acceleration, behavior around stall, and armament. Top speed is great for getting into or out of a fight, and for catching up to a target fleeing without regard to anyone following, but is NOT an important dogfight variable otherwise. That from veterans, not from me. I have heard that from maybe 30 WWII pilots who fought in the PTO. The guys who loved top speed were ETO guys who could dive on someone from 25,000 feet or who were chasing Bf 109s and Fw 190s that dived through the bomber formations from above. Not from guys flying Hellcats at 3,500 feet on combat air patrol around a carrier task force. The PTO was a much lower-altitude war than the ETO because the ocean has very few mountains sticking up out of it. And ... if your engine got quiet, altitude wasn't usually going to allow you land on a carrier. It was usually ditch or nylon letdown time regardless of altitude.

Many in here will disagree, but I go with the guys who were there and flew the planes. ALL the pilots who fly them LOVE the Hellcat for it's handling and forgiving characteristics at all speeds. As the old saying goes, "Ask the guy who flies one!"

At warbird gatherings where veterans show up, the Hellcat gets a LOT of respect.

I speak from experience when I say that the Japanese fighters that we encountered over Saipan on 29 May, 1944 were much more aggressive than any we met thereafter. I was a belly turret gunner on a Navy PB4Y1.

 

[Greg Boeser]

Lt. Nishizawa, one of Japan's leading aces, accrued all of his victories in the A6M - right through 1944 with an A6M5 attached to the 201st Kōkūtai.

Two days before his death, he downed two F6Fs and in a twist of irony, Hellcats from VF-14 downed the KI-49 transport he was aboard, ober Mindoro Island, as they were being transported to Luzon for replacement A6Ms.

So this will add gravity to the argument that the Zero may have been dated, but in the hands of a skilled pilot, was still to be respected.

In regards to damage to an aircraft, breaches in the skin will disrupt the airflow, causing drag. Bullet holes may not cause much drag, but cannon rounds were known to rip large holes in an aircraft's surface. The more damage, the higher the drag. Add to that, damage to aerleron surfaces will diminish the aircraft's handling. Damage to an oil-cooled aircraft can often obscure the pilot's view by covering the windscreen and canopy surfaces, making flight extremely difficult, not to mention the potential for the engine to overheat and seize within a certain amount of time.

So it all depends on the aircraft type, the extent of damage, where the battle is commencing and who's flying it...

Luca Ruffato in Eagles of the Southern Skies remarks that damaged Zeros of the Tainan Kokutai usually returned with one or two bullet holes, or they didn't return at all. He also quotes Sakai Saburo about the damage inflicted on a G4M that made an emergency landing at Lea after an attack on Port Moresby. Pretty gruesome.