Resolved. German jets were a waste of time and effort

[drgondog]

Neither P-80 nor Meteor had the range to escort bombers to Germany. The simple answer is they would've dropped the a-bomb. End of story.

Actually near the end of the war (post November) the P-80s could have escorted to Central Germany from Belgium. The only feasible way to accomplish this would be target escort only where they would economically cruise to a target R/V escort around the target and BE within 20 minutes+.

The second tactic woul be a fighter sweep out in front to approximately Brunswick, maybe a little further.

 

[syscom3]

Neither P-80 nor Meteor had the range to escort bombers to Germany. The simple answer is they would've dropped the a-bomb. End of story.

Didnt the P-80 with drop tanks have a combat radius of (approx) 500 miles?

 

[Glider]

I disagree. The He 162 was exactly what Germany needed and more so than the Me 262.

Never mind I don't mind you being wrong!!

The He 162 was equipped with 2x MK108, which in my opinion iis enough to kill a B-24 or B-17 in a single pass. They only had to switch back to the MG151/20 for the He 162 A-2, which admittedly seems to be the only version used in any numbers by the JG1. The reason for the switch back to the MG151 was, according to the only source I have that bothers to give an explanation, that the MK108 "could no longer be delivered". Remember that this was in february to march 1945, so to me that seems plausible.

My understanding was that the airframe couldn't take the recoil of the MK 108 either way for whatever reason it wasn't ever built with the 108. I also do not believe that the Mk108 couldn't be delivered as it was delivered to every other aircraft that wanted it, 109, 262, Nightfighters, 190's you name it they had it.

And no, an introduction of the Me 262 six months earlier than historically would not have a real impact on the situation over Germany in my opinion. I would say for any significant change the Me 262 would need to be available in numbers around the same time the US started massive long range raids with escorts into Germany. That is late 1943, so around the same time the Ekdo 262 started its first hesitant flights with prototype Me 262s. So you would need at least 10 or so months for preparations, training familiarization with a completely new type of aircraft, ironing out the bugs and production of a larger number of birds.

So, in my opinion, only had the final production Me 262 A-1a been available in the early spring of 1943, it might've had significant impact.

Deliveries started in June 1944 as a slow rate largely due to a shortage of materials. Had they been given the priority and production starting in Jan 1944 it would have been a signficant difference. Production would have started earlier and at a higher rate.
The bomber escort could have been attacked breaking them up leaving the bombers to the traditional fighters. More importantly the Germans would have had an aircraft that could recce the coastal areas of the UK at will and severely hamper the Allied recce effort which operated without any real interference from the German forces. This may well have had a significant impact on the invasion and the German preparations and their reactions to it.

Oh and the Me 163 was developed alongside the Me 262, it is not a late-war,

I know and I chose it with care as it proves my point.
The 163 was never going to have an impact on the war it was at best a short ranged point defence weapon that was close to useless for defending an area the size of Europe. The effort put into the 163 would have been better used in fixing the 262 and getting it ready earlier.

 

[zoomar]

I disagree. The He 162 was exactly what Germany needed and more so than the Me 262.

The He 162 was equipped with 2x MK108, which in my opinion iis enough to kill a B-24 or B-17 in a single pass. They only had to switch back to the MG151/20 for the He 162 A-2, which admittedly seems to be the only version used in any numbers by the JG1. The reason for the switch back to the MG151 was, according to the only source I have that bothers to give an explanation, that the MK108 "could no longer be delivered". Remember that this was in february to march 1945, so to me that seems plausible..

No operational He-162 was ever equipped with the Mk108s, and I have read in many sources that the decision to switch to the 20mm cannon in the He-162A-2 was because of excessive vibration caused by the firing of large 30mm cannon in such as small and lightly constructed airframe. Without 30mm cannon, the He-162 certailnly did not have the same anti-bomber capabilities as the Me-262. Perhaps later versions could have been re-engineered to take the two 30 mm cannon, but why do this when you have the Me-262 with four of them with decent amounts of ammo. Remember, the Me-163 also had two MK108's and, even with highly skilled pilots, they had a hard time hitting very many B-17s with only two of these slow firing guns. There is a reason both Kurt Tank and Willy Messerschmitt refused to participate meaningfully in the "Salamander" program. It was a waste of effort aimed at producing a warplane that had no hope of meeting the ill-considered goal being sought for it: a jet fighter that could be produced by unskilled slave laborers and flown by Hitler Houth with only minimal fight training. By all accounts, the He-162 was a difficult and dangerous airplane to fly. The Me-262, like all early jets, was by no means perfect (and in my opinion it is also overrated as a game changer), but it was reportedly an easier plane to fly and was much more in line with what the Germans needed. Perhaps, with years of development, the basic He-162 concept could have been turned into a servicable fighter, but why do this when you already have one jet fighter (two, counting the He-280) ready to go.

 

[Erich]

what vibration for the Mk 108 ?, the Volksjäger was to be short term that was it, it was not and would not be noted for future 1946 useage, it was deemed undesireable, none of the day fighter JG's were to have it in strength, JG 1's use was for testing purposes where it failed miserably.

 

[riacrato]

I'm pretty sure I'm right

The RLM requirement asked for the fighter to accept both the MG151 and the MK108. The prototypes were thus fitted with both weapons in about a 50:50 fashion (MK108: M2, M6, M11, M14, M27; MG151: M4, M8; M12, M21 and possibly M18). Later prototypes usually had the MK108 but the data is incomplete. These are the facts, everything else is just speculation (unless I see a source).

For the record: I don't rule out the possibility of your explanation. The M27 was equipped with the MK108 and it IS noted that this one received a "strengthening of the structure" in march 1945 (it doesn't mention what part was affected). As I said I have seen a single secondary source that gave an explanation for the use of the MG151 instead of the MK108. And that is the latters unavailability. Please name your source, I'm willing to learn. I have also heard about the airframe not being able to handle it (and that adjustments were made for the following types) but I only read that on webpages and forums, I'd rather see a researched source for this- "You don't believe" that it couldn't be delivered doesn't count.


Either way, I don't think it would've been an impossible obstacle to make the He-162 carry the MK108. All future projected versions had the MK108 anyways.

Deliveries started in June 1944 as a slow rate largely due to a shortage of materials. Had they been given the priority and production starting in Jan 1944 it would have been a signficant difference. Production would have started earlier and at a higher rate.
The bomber escort could have been attacked breaking them up leaving the bombers to the traditional fighters. More importantly the Germans would have had an aircraft that could recce the coastal areas of the UK at will and severely hamper the Allied recce effort which operated without any real interference from the German forces. This may well have had a significant impact on the invasion and the German preparations and their reactions to it.

Had deliveries begun in January 1944 familiarization would've been right in the same period as the Big Week with, and I have very little doubt about that, equally catastrophic results. And how many Gruppen would've been equipped before it's all over in May? One? Two?

In reality: Even though deliveries commenced mid 1944, the Me 262 didn't have any real success until way later, arguably only starting January 1945.

I know and I chose it with care as it proves my point.
The 163 was never going to have an impact on the war it was at best a short ranged point defence weapon that was close to useless for defending an area the size of Europe. The effort put into the 163 would have been better used in fixing the 262 and getting it ready earlier.

Wrong imo. The point defense weapon and similar concepts were being explored by most nations post-war before the AAA rockets made them obsolete. The problem was a) that the Me 163 was too limited even for that purpose b) the concept itself proved to be more than a handful for fighter pilots and ground personnel, nothing you could easily introduce in wartime and in a short span.

Whether it could ever be made working in a satisfying manner? We will never know.

And yeah 20/20 hindsight sure helps.

Actually near the end of the war (post November) the P-80s could have escorted to Central Germany from Belgium. The only feasible way to accomplish this would be target escort only where they would economically cruise to a target R/V escort around the target and BE within 20 minutes+.

The second tactic woul be a fighter sweep out in front to approximately Brunswick, maybe a little further.

Yes, I was referring to a pre-d-day scenario.

what vibration for the Mk 108 ?, the Volksjäger was to be short term that was it, it was not and would not be noted for future 1946 useage, it was deemed undesireable, none of the day fighter JG's were to have it in strength, JG 1's use was for testing purposes where it failed miserably.

Since it was only flown operationally in april 1945 and after and the quality of the airframes was probably poor it didn't really have a chance. And as far as i know it was supposed to be produced until April 1946.

 

[riacrato]

No operational He-162 was ever equipped with the Mk108s, and I have read in many sources that the decision to switch to the 20mm cannon in the He-162A-2 was because of excessive vibration caused by the firing of large 30mm cannon in such as small and lightly constructed airframe. Without 30mm cannon, the He-162 certailnly did not have the same anti-bomber capabilities as the Me-262. Perhaps later versions could have been re-engineered to take the two 30 mm cannon, but why do this when you have the Me-262 with four of them with decent amounts of ammo. Remember, the Me-163 also had two MK108's and, even with highly skilled pilots, they had a hard time hitting very many B-17s with only two of these slow firing guns. There is a reason both Kurt Tank and Willy Messerschmitt refused to participate meaningfully in the "Salamander" program. It was a waste of effort aimed at producing a warplane that had no hope of meeting the ill-considered goal being sought for it: a jet fighter that could be produced by unskilled slave laborers and flown by Hitler Houth with only minimal fight training. By all accounts, the He-162 was a difficult and dangerous airplane to fly. The Me-262, like all early jets, was by no means perfect (and in my opinion it is also overrated as a game changer), but it was reportedly an easier plane to fly and was much more in line with what the Germans needed. Perhaps, with years of development, the basic He-162 concept could have been turned into a servicable fighter, but why do this when you already have one jet fighter (two, counting the He-280) ready to go.

Like i said above: Source please.

1. "Salamander" had nothing to do with the development program or the RLM request. It was (very likely) the name for the construction program.
2. Messerschmitt and Tank didn't believe in the concept of a Volksjaeger that could be flown by 15 year old boys with no experience. It had nothing to do with armament.
3. The reason behind the desire of having a second jet fighter made largely out of wood and powered by a single engine should be obvious.
4. The MK108 is slow firing?
6. "No operational He-162 was ever equipped with the Mk108s"

 

[Glider]

I'm pretty sure I'm right

The RLM requirement asked for the fighter to accept both the MG151 and the MK108. The prototypes were thus fitted with both weapons in about a 50:50 fashion (MK108: M2, M6, M11, M14, M27; MG151: M4, M8; M12, M21 and possibly M18). Later prototypes usually had the MK108 but the data is incomplete. These are the facts, everything else is just speculation (unless I see a source). .

I don't disagree with this

.

For the record: I don't rule out the possibility of your explanation. The M27 was equipped with the MK108 and it IS noted that this one received a "strengthening of the structure" in march 1945 (it doesn't mention what part was affected). As I said I have seen a single secondary source that gave an explanation for the use of the MG151 instead of the MK108

And that is the latters unavailability. Please name your source, I'm willing to learn. I have also heard about the airframe not being able to handle it (and that adjustments were made for the following types) but I only read that on webpages and forums, I'd rather see a researched source for this- "You don't believe" that it couldn't be delivered doesn't count...

I certainly admit to not having a secondary source. However there is no doubt that every other type of German fighter that wanted a Mk 108 had a Mk 108 without any problem. With that in mind it would take more than one secondary source to persude me that there was some magic reason why they couldn't be delivered to the people producing the He 162.

Either way, I don't think it would've been an impossible obstacle to make the He-162 carry the MK108. All future projected versions had the MK108 anyways.

On that I agree

Had deliveries begun in January 1944 familiarization would've been right in the same period as the Big Week with, and I have very little doubt about that, equally catastrophic results. And how many Gruppen would've been equipped before it's all over in May? One? Two?

In reality: Even though deliveries commenced mid 1944, the Me 262 didn't have any real success until way later, arguably only starting January 1945.

And if you bring the Me262 forward by 6 months you have real success around the time of the Invasion with greater numbers due to the better production and better dispersal of the airfields.
YOu are also overlooking the impact on PR missions to both sides. Reducing the ability of the Allied PR missions would significantly hamper the allies preparation and the ability to undertake PR missions over the UK coast may well have helped predict where and when the invasion was coming. In my opinion that is more impoortant than stopping a few air raids.

Wrong imo. The point defense weapon and similar concepts were being explored by most nations post-war before the AAA rockets made them obsolete. The problem was a) that the Me 163 was too limited even for that purpose b) the concept itself proved to be more than a handful for fighter pilots and ground personnel, nothing you could easily introduce in wartime and in a short span.

We agree that the Me163 was a flawed concept. We disagree that a point defence system could have been effective in the defence of Europe. The point is that the Me163 was flawed and I believe that using that effort in the work on the Me262 would have been benifical

 

[The Basket]

I find the whole He-162 concept deeply flawed.

It was total nonsense.

Although the fact that the final machine was even remotely usable says a lot about German engineering.

To pilot the 162 would be a quick way to have a short career.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I find the whole He-162 concept deeply flawed.

It was total nonsense.

Although the fact that the final machine was even remotely usable says a lot about German engineering.

To pilot the 162 would be a quick way to have a short career.

The only thing flawed about the He 162 concept was a low time pilot couldn't fly it. In the hands of an experienced pilot it "would have" been a handful. Fighters are supposed to have some inherent instability within their design.

Eric Brown flew this aircraft several times and had high praise for it.

Manufacturing with slave labor would have brought problems as well, but that's another story.

 

[The Basket]

The aircraft was deeply flawed...it had to go from clean sheet of paper to mass production in 90 days.

No machine would ever work like that...certainly not a high performance jet fighter.

Galland, Tank and Messerschmitt were agaisnt the fighter for this reason. Any faults would have to be either ironed out or ignored on the job.

The He-162 which Brown flew later broke up in flight killing the pilot.

 

[Colin1]

The He-162 which Brown flew later broke up in flight killing the pilot.

Was this attributed
to a design issue or a manufacturing issue?

 

[tomo pauk]

Typhoon's tail was known to fly off from the rest of the hull. Buffalo was noted for being of under-standard quality. SB2Cs were known for failing undercarriages.
All of those have used 900 days to rectify their issues, so He-162 beats them big time.

 

[The Basket]

Was this attributed
to a design issue or a manufacturing issue?

Flt Lt R A Marks
9/11/1945 0r 11/9/1945 for the Americans...9th Nov...1945

Certainly structural failure as the tail came off.

Brown warned Marks not to use rudder whilst rolling.

During Browns flight...he says the rudder was buffeting and juddering...he used the rudder sparingly as the rudder was a danger in his opinion.

 

[The Basket]

Typhoon's tail was known to fly off from the rest of the hull. Buffalo was noted for being of under-standard quality. SB2Cs were known for failing undercarriages.
All of those have used 900 days to rectify their issues, so He-162 beats them big time.

Yes it takes time to iron out issues...so how does putting the He-162 into production help?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

And it broke up because the pilot was aggressive on the rudders, something that would break up any early jet, especially at high speeds. This was one of many things recip pilots had to learn when transitioning into jets, Brown warned the pilot about that prior to the accident, and this is well documented.

You're own statement....

Flt Lt R A Marks
9/11/1945 0r 11/9/1945 for the Americans...9th Nov...1945

Certainly structural failure as the tail came off.

Brown warned Marks not to use rudder whilst rolling.

During Browns flight...he says the rudder was buffeting and juddering...he used the rudder sparingly as the rudder was a danger in his opinion.

BTW the P-80 was designed and built in 180 days.

Brown liked the aircraft and I think this folklore about it begin unstable was based on non-pilots judging the aircraft by its looks rather than examining how it really flew.

 

[The Basket]

The German economy was ruined the American was not...

The p-80 had faults but the Americans had something the Germans didnt have...time.

Marks was an experinced pilot and more experienced than the He 162 was designed for.

 

[Colin1]

Marks was an experienced pilot and more experienced than the He 162 was designed for

I'm not sure what you mean

 

[FLYBOYJ]

was an experinced pilot and more experienced than the He 162 was designed for.

But he didn't heed the warning of Brown and it killed him.

The 162 had manufacturing problems and Germany had run out of time. The fact in the end was the aircraft "would have" been a formidable fighter but not an ideal aircraft for low time pilots.

 

[The Basket]

But he didn't heed the warning of Brown and it killed him.

The 162 had manufacturing problems and Germany had run out of time. The fact in the end was the aircraft "would have" been a formidable fighter but not an ideal aircraft for low time pilots.

Marks was an experienced pilot and not HJ trained in gliders...

I agree that the 162 was a good airplane somewhere within its wood...but not within the timescales or the economy it was designed in.

An interesting point that the concept was not taken up by the Allies after the war finished...the Me 262/Ar 234 was both copied by the Soviets and the French.