Resolved. German jets were a waste of time and effort

[Erich]

Bill did bring up the important point, the LW "had to" do something about the increased air activity over it's countryside, the jet was to be the short term fullfillment until masses of Ta's could be brought forward to counter the P-51 and the jets do the bomber destruction............that was to be the future theory; none of this mythical though of Ta's encountering waves of B-29 please as that was just not the case. The Ta was proposed as I said to counter the P-51 threat.

besides the jet really was not a bad ground attack fighter either, the Soviets felt that in March-may of 45 with those R4M and Panzerschreck heads

 

[Gixxerman]

One criticism of the Ta 152/153 program I've seen levelled and which seems to be fair is -
why bother with the diversion of resources and effort when (assuming their mission was fighter v fighter keeping the jet airfields clear of roaming allied attacking aircraft) when the late 190A 190Ds could perform the same task just as well?

Is this a fair comment?

 

[Erich]

actually the Ta was never to be used as airfield protection for any piston job or jet that was left to the Dora 9's and or airfield Flak defenses.

 

[tomo pauk]

One criticism of the Ta 152/153 program I've seen levelled and which seems to be fair is -
why bother with the diversion of resources and effort when (assuming their mission was fighter v fighter keeping the jet airfields clear of roaming allied attacking aircraft) when the late 190A 190Ds could perform the same task just as well?

Is this a fair comment?

Even if the late Fw-190s (A-9, D-13) were able to muster 2-5% better performance vs. most of Allied fighters, that was not what Germans needed - not when enemy throws in the air double or triple number of it's own fighters (plus the bombers of all sizes). The average pilot's capabilities would've never used those 2-5% extra anyway.
Germans needed the design that was able to have a healthy performance margin, at small cost, to cancel out allied numerical and manpower-quality supremacy. He-162 was the answer, but came to late, with no time to either work the bugs out, nor to produce it in numbers.

 

[drgondog]

Even if the late Fw-190s (A-9, D-13) were able to muster 2-5% better performance vs. most of Allied fighters, that was not what Germans needed - not when enemy throws in the air double or triple number of it's own fighters (plus the bombers of all sizes). The average pilot's capabilities would've never used those 2-5% extra anyway.
Germans needed the design that was able to have a healthy performance margin, at small cost, to cancel out allied numerical and manpower-quality supremacy. He-162 was the answer, but came to late, with no time to either work the bugs out, nor to produce it in numbers.

Tomo - I tend to agree your point but question whether He 162 offered better mission capability with single engine over Me 262 - as well as more limited range... an interesting question given the reliability fo the engines, but also granting the 262 used more critically short materials than the 162..

 

[drgondog]

Even if the late Fw-190s (A-9, D-13) were able to muster 2-5% better performance vs. most of Allied fighters, that was not what Germans needed - not when enemy throws in the air double or triple number of it's own fighters (plus the bombers of all sizes). The average pilot's capabilities would've never used those 2-5% extra anyway.
Germans needed the design that was able to have a healthy performance margin, at small cost, to cancel out allied numerical and manpower-quality supremacy. He-162 was the answer, but came to late, with no time to either work the bugs out, nor to produce it in numbers.

Tomo - I tend to agree your point but question whether He 162 offered better mission capability with single engine over Me 262 - as well as more limited range... an interesting question given the reliability fo the engines, but also granting the 262 used more critically short materials than the 162..

 

[tomo pauk]

Tomo - I tend to agree your point but question whether He 162 offered better mission capability with single engine over Me 262 - as well as more limited range... an interesting question given the reliability fo the engines, but also granting the 262 used more critically short materials than the 162..

Yep, one of reasons I don't blow the Me-262 trumpet is that it was something like German P-38 - great, but expensive sometimes troublesome.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Yep, one of reasons I don't blow the Me-262 trumpet is that it was something like German P-38 - great, but expensive sometimes troublesome.

The 5th AF didn't feel that way....

 

[Colin1]

Alot of the P-38's mechanical problems in the ETO seem to have stemmed from the way the UK refined their fuel. US refinery techniques didn't leave any lead build-up on the plugs. Allisons in the ETO would not run at their rated horsepower and would quite often quit altogether, all due to fouled plugs; it took the USAAF a fair while to get to the bottom of the problem.

The exact-same engines ran just fine with the 5th AF, where there was no local fuel refining so all stocks had to come from the US.

 

[Milosh]

I have heard of that reason before Colin but why does not one hear about the Allisons in the P-51s/Mustang Is and P-40s having the same problem.

 

[riacrato]

Tomo - I tend to agree your point but question whether He 162 offered better mission capability with single engine over Me 262 - as well as more limited range... an interesting question given the reliability fo the engines, but also granting the 262 used more critically short materials than the 162..

drgondog - In my opinion the limited range of the He 162 is more or less a myth, at least when compared to the Me 262. It stems from the original RLM requirement '30 min. endurance' and has since been copied and pasted by the various authors of popular and not very thoroughly researched standard encyclopedias.

The He 162 has a 1055 liter fuel capacity for one BMW 003E and a take-off weight of 2805 kg.
The Me 262 has a 2400 liter fuel capacity for two Jumo 004B and a take-off weight of 6473 kg.
I have no drag figures for the He 162, so I can't compare that.

The range quoted for the Me 262 varies depending on version and source but is usually between 900 and 1050 km. I assume this is at something like 80-90% throttle (my guess).
The range for the He 162 at full throttle is ~390 km at sea level (this is the '30 min. endurance'), ~620 km at 6000 m and ~975 km at 11,000 m.

That is not counting the optional 170 liter fuel tank below the Me 262 cockpit which was usually not used as far as i can recall.

Given these figures I would say the Me 262 and the He 162 had the about same mission capabilities.

 

[Colin1]

I have heard of that reason before Colin but why does not one hear about the Allisons in the P-51s/Mustang Is and P-40s having the same problem.

I think the issue was more closely tied to the turbocharger arrangement used by the P-38 than the supercharger arrangement used by the Allison P-51. I don't recall any particularly significant use of the P-40 in the ETO.

 

[Glider]

Germany were well advised to develop the Me262 and ill advised not to throw everything they could do to get them into service earlier. The He162 was a remarkable design but was
a) not what germany needed
b) another diversion of resources as was the Me163, Ta152, Do 335, and other late developments.

The 262 was almost immune to fighters with precious few shot down when in the air (apart from landing and take off) and lethal against bombers offering a one pass one kill capability. The He 162 with 2 x 20mm lacked this and the piston engined types didn't have the performance to stay out of the way of the Allied fighters.

In the first few months of WW2 the British realised that survival was the name of the game and forbade almost all development and concentrated on the production of a handful of aircraft.

Germany did of course concentrate on the production of fighters but didn't stop wasting resources on the development of aircraft that never had a serious chance of reaching combat and would have only had a marginal impact had they made the front line. Those designers, engineers, research facilities and scarce materials could well have impacted the in service date of the Me262, even 6 months would have made a huge difference.

 

[vanir]

I think the issue was more closely tied to the turbocharger arrangement used by the P-38 than the supercharger arrangement used by the Allison P-51. I don't recall any particularly significant use of the P-40 in the ETO.

talking about auto engine experience here and not familiarity with the turbo Allison aero engine, but the turbo should be less prone to fouling than the single stage supercharger, they like it rich or should I say, need it or the plugs burn.
A mechanical blower (single or multispeed) is "softer" on the plugs, a turbo is like hitting them with a sledgehammer. They love, really love leading because it boosts cylinder heat evacuation.
so the turbo should burn off more leading from the plugs than a mechanical blower on the same fuel.

 

[tomo pauk]

The 5th AF didn't feel that way....

The price of P-38 was not their problem, and the later series have had some stuff added (wing root fillet, dive flaps, powered commands) to alleviate some issues. Since (I repeat) plane was great, my comment was not too away from truth.

 

[riacrato]

Germany were well advised to develop the Me262 and ill advised not to throw everything they could do to get them into service earlier. The He162 was a remarkable design but was
a) not what germany needed
b) another diversion of resources as was the Me163, Ta152, Do 335, and other late developments.

The 262 was almost immune to fighters with precious few shot down when in the air (apart from landing and take off) and lethal against bombers offering a one pass one kill capability. The He 162 with 2 x 20mm lacked this and the piston engined types didn't have the performance to stay out of the way of the Allied fighters.

In the first few months of WW2 the British realised that survival was the name of the game and forbade almost all development and concentrated on the production of a handful of aircraft.

Germany did of course concentrate on the production of fighters but didn't stop wasting resources on the development of aircraft that never had a serious chance of reaching combat and would have only had a marginal impact had they made the front line. Those designers, engineers, research facilities and scarce materials could well have impacted the in service date of the Me262, even 6 months would have made a huge difference.

I disagree. The He 162 was exactly what Germany needed and more so than the Me 262.

The He 162 was equipped with 2x MK108, which in my opinion iis enough to kill a B-24 or B-17 in a single pass. They only had to switch back to the MG151/20 for the He 162 A-2, which admittedly seems to be the only version used in any numbers by the JG1. The reason for the switch back to the MG151 was, according to the only source I have that bothers to give an explanation, that the MK108 "could no longer be delivered". Remember that this was in february to march 1945, so to me that seems plausible.

And no, an introduction of the Me 262 six months earlier than historically would not have a real impact on the situation over Germany in my opinion. I would say for any significant change the Me 262 would need to be available in numbers around the same time the US started massive long range raids with escorts into Germany. That is late 1943, so around the same time the Ekdo 262 started its first hesitant flights with prototype Me 262s. So you would need at least 10 or so months for preparations, training familiarization with a completely new type of aircraft, ironing out the bugs and production of a larger number of birds.

So, in my opinion, only had the final production Me 262 A-1a been available in the early spring of 1943, it might've had significant impact.

Oh and the Me 163 was developed alongside the Me 262, it is not a late-war, desperate development and to count it as such is unfair (imo). The V4 made it's maiden glide (engine was not ready) in the autumn of 1940. By the time the late war development rush kicked in it was already a mature design (if you can call a rocket plane mature) an proven to be more or less a failure in its given configuration.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The price of P-38 was not their problem, and the later series have had some stuff added (wing root fillet, dive flaps, powered commands) to alleviate some issues. Since (I repeat) plane was great, my comment was not too away from truth.

The 5th AF successfully operated the P-38 (starting out with E models) from late 1942 and did not complain about them like the folks in the ETO did. The P-38 was the right aircraft for the pacific regardless of price, and did do its job well.

 

[Nikademus]

Earlier Jets for the Germans would probably have set the air-war over Germany back by around a year at most in terms of setback battles along the Schweinfurt pattern...(aka, battles that make the Allies back off, retool/rethink their strategy)

Ultimately the Allies would have responded with a technological leap of their own. For the Germans to "win" they'd have to be able to alter the attritional balance and sustain it for an extended period. Don't see that happening. The Western allies wern't that far behind in the Jet game. Eventually P-80's and Meteors would be deployed.

 

[riacrato]

Neither P-80 nor Meteor had the range to escort bombers to Germany. The simple answer is they would've dropped the a-bomb. End of story.

 

[drgondog]

Germany were well advised to develop the Me262 and ill advised not to throw everything they could do to get them into service earlier. The He162 was a remarkable design but was
a) not what germany needed
b) another diversion of resources as was the Me163, Ta152, Do 335, and other late developments.

The 262 was almost immune to fighters with precious few shot down when in the air (apart from landing and take off) and lethal against bombers offering a one pass one kill capability. The He 162 with 2 x 20mm lacked this and the piston engined types didn't have the performance to stay out of the way of the Allied fighters.

In the first few months of WW2 the British realised that survival was the name of the game and forbade almost all development and concentrated on the production of a handful of aircraft.

Germany did of course concentrate on the production of fighters but didn't stop wasting resources on the development of aircraft that never had a serious chance of reaching combat and would have only had a marginal impact had they made the front line. Those designers, engineers, research facilities and scarce materials could well have impacted the in service date of the Me262, even 6 months would have made a huge difference.[/QUOTE

Glider - I have looked at all the US claims/credits for Me 262s - of the 116+ from the 8th AF more than 60% were destroyed when the initiation of combat was started at high altitude. The modes of destruction including a.) long range shooting which damaged an engine, and b.) excellent deflection shooting.

In the remaining ~40% the destruction occurred at low altitude with a.) damaged 262 no longer able to outpace the pursuing aircraft(s), b.) in a landing pattern. I do not recall if I saw an Encounter Report claiming a 262 on takeoff and climb out but I would not discount that scenario - I just don't recall.