Russia marks anniversary of its best tank

[Glider]

Hello Glider
In defence of Soren, BK 3.7cm was airborne version of 3.7cm Flak 18, and LW had developed a very powerful APCR ammo for it, it's problem was that its penetration power sharply reduced when the hit angle increased/decreased from perpendicular (depends how one gives the hit angle). So if a battery of 3.7cm Flak guns had those special shots it might have been possible that while the upper side armour was impenetrable a bit substandard turret side armour might have been penetrable from 600m, a bit so and so but maybe. Because of this behaviour of the APCR ammo, Ju 87G pilots tried to achieve as close as possible perpendicular hits when attacking Soviet armour..

On German total losses, I would say appr 42.000 panzers, StuG,s StuHs, StuPzs, JgPzs and Pak/Sfls based on M-H's figures, when one takes into account those lost before May 41, those produced during the last couple months of the war and those lost in the last 3+ months of the war unless someone can give info on mass surrenders of AFVs somewhere in Reich in May 45.

Juha

Juha
Thanks for your comments. I understand that the BK 3.7 was an airbourne version of the Flak guns. My problem is the statement that the T34 85 was vulnerable to flak fire.
Its a bit like me saying the Crusader III tanks were fine as the 6pd HE shells were effecrtive against AT guns. That would of course be rubbish as the tanks were not given the HE ammunition. If the Flak guns were not given the APCR ammunition then to say that they were a risk to T34/85 tanks is equally rubbish.

A theoretical risk is not a real risk.

 

[parsifal]

Hello Glider


On German total losses, I would say appr 42.000 panzers, StuG,s StuHs, StuPzs, JgPzs and Pak/Sfls based on M-H's figures, when one takes into account those lost before May 41, those produced during the last couple months of the war and those lost in the last 3+ months of the war unless someone can give info on mass surrenders of AFVs somewhere in Reich in May 45.

Juha

ADDITION: Because SU-76s was also used as SP artllery, IMHO we should add to German losses their SP artillery vehicles, Wespes, Hummels and those build on war booty chassis, say 2.000 losses. That still leaves over 350 SP guns to German hands at the end of the war. Plus appr 1.000 war booty tanks, StuGs etc officially used by WM, so altogerher some 45.000 German losses vs 96.500 Soviet losses + Allied losses in ETO and MTO. And of course to Germany's side clearly smaller losses of its allies.

Hi Juha

It seems to me that the loss rates for both the Russians and the germans were skewed by what happened at the very beginning and at the very end of the war. In the case of the Russians, huge numbers of AFVs were lost in 1941 and trhe first half of 1942, for no significant effect on the germans. The Russians were so bad at the use of armour that they really got nothing out of their armour.

Conversely, in the last months of the war, German losses skyrocketed as tanks ran out of fuel and were captured or scuttled by their own crews.

In both cases, these phenomena skews the result one way or the other. What really needs to happen is to assess the effectiveness of the respective tank parks whilst they could be gainfully used. I would suggest as a rough starting point the assesment be from the end of 1942 through to the end of February 1945, or some other nominated time frame. That way we might get a better idea of the relative performance of each force, whilst they were both effective.....

 

[Juha]

Hello Parsifal
I agree. IMHO for simplicity easiest way is to compare losses of 43-44.
But there was big tank battles in early 45 for ex in Western Hungary where Soviets turned the northern flank of German attack and forced Germans to headlong retreat with massive losses of heavy equipment incl AFVs. The question wasn't so much of lack of supplies but cleaver use of topography by Soviets. They allowed Germans advance deep into a bag before they launched their counter-attack.

Juha

 

[Soren]

Soviet losses however also skyrocketed in 1945 where 13,700 Soviet tanks were lost for ~2,700 German tanks. Many of the Soviet tank losses were inflicted by infantry armed with Panzerfausts, where'as most German tanks were simply abandoned and blown up.


Soviet German tank losses by year:

Soviet (Eastern front only) / German (All fronts)
1940: 0 / 822
1941: 20,500 / 2,950
1942: 15,100 / 3,282
1943: 23,500 / 9,594
1944: 23,700 / 14,692
1945: 13,700 / ~2,700

 

[Soren]

Another question for you Soren. If the T34/85 was in service from 1944, how did the 37mm AA guns knock them out with ammunition that hadn't been produced in any numbers since 1942 and as far as I can see there is no evidence that this ammunition was ever fired from the AA guns. The only reference I can find is for an AP shell.

No evidence that this round was fired from AA guns? What'ever let you to that assumption?

As the Pak36 was phased out the APCR ammunition was handed over for the AA guns a/c armaments. Plus there was still being made APCR even in 1944, the last stocks of tungsten being prioritized for small caliber ammunition production.

Anyway you really should be talking to Oleg Drabkihn about this, they're the ones who wrote that German 3.7cm AA guns proved dangerous to the T-34 because of the soft turret armour. I just checked to see if it could be true and according to actual tests it is true. So thats it really.

 

[Juha]

Really Soren
First of all as m_kenny has informed you at least 3 times, the figures you used from Krivoseev as Soviet tank losses are clearly marked in the book as tank AND SP GUN losses as anyone can check from m_kenny's message #78. Soviet tank losses in 1945 were 8700. And WM had 6284 German made tanks on 1.1.45 according to Müller-Hillebrand, and produced say 1.000 more in 45, so German tank losses were clearly higher than what you claim.

Juha

 

[Soren]

Really Soren
First of all as m_kenny has informed you at least 3 times, the figures you used from Krivoseev as Soviet tank losses are clearly marked in the book as tank AND SP GUN losses as anyone can check from m_kenny's message #78. Soviet tank losses in 1945 were 8700. And WM had 6284 German made tanks on 1.1.45 according to Müller-Hillebrand, and produced say 1.000 more in 45, so German tank losses were clearly higher than what you claim.

Juha

Juha for christ's sake, pay attention will you I included German SP's in the figures as-well.

And the German tank SP losses were not higher than the figures I posted, they are exactly as stated by Hahn:

1939: 229
1940: 822
1941: 2,950
1942: 3,282
1943: 9,594
1944: 14,692
1945: ~2,700 + ~2,800

And Hahn's figures are taken directly from the statistics of the Heereswaffenamt ("Rüstungsstand") as explained in his book. So the above figures are the most accurate you will find anywhere Juha and they are the actual losses. The only period of uncertainty is from Feburary 45 to April 45, in which period it is estimated that around 2,000 Germans tanks were lost, most just left behind or blown up by their own crews.

 

[Juha]

Soren
if you want to compare tank, StuG etc losses in 45, the exchange rate becomes even worse to Germans, add 6.000+ StuGs StuHs, StuPzs and JgPzs which WM had on 1.1.45, add production in 45 (3.000+), add Pak/Sfls and SP guns WM had on 1.1.45, appr 1.000 altogether. And WM didn't have many AFVs left when Germany surrendered; those in Scandinavia, in Reich least 12th A had some, in Northern Italy Germans had surrendered a few days earlier and 26th PzD may well have had some still in strength, in Kurland Pocket there still was some AFVs. But almost all were lost, say 16. – 17.000.

Juha

 

[Juha]

Are you serious
no losses in May 45 and uncertaintity of losses between Feb and April, so sure info only on losses in Jan 45, no wonder that your figure is so low. And where those some 15.000 German AFVs disappeared? Small green men arrived from outer space and eaten them???

Juha

 

[Soren]

Yes I'm serious Juha, and your figures are extremely overblown. Actual German tank SP losses are as stated in my last post.

 

[Juha]

So what is your explanation to where those some 15.000 AFVs ended, they clearly were not in Germans hand when the war ended. So they were lost or... some explanation, please.

 

[Soren]

1939:
Tanks: 229
Armoured cars: 101

The figures are total losses

1940
Tanks: 822
Armoured cars: 188

1941:
Tanks: 2813
StuG: 96
Armoured cars: 535
SPW: 285
SP-guns: 41

1942
Tanks: 2952
StuG: 332
Armoured cars: 336
SPW: 383

1943:
Tanks: 6479
StuG/Jagdpanzer: 1609
Armoured cars: 1221
SPW: 2673
SP-guns: 1506 (incl. Sturmpanzer)
BIV charge carriers: 227

Figures include losses that were later rebuilt and reissued.

1944
Tanks: 7714
StuG/Jagdpanzer: 4910
Armoured cars:936
SPW: 7198
SP-Guns: 2068 (incl. Sturmpanzer)
BIV charge carriers: 68

Figures to include losses that were later rebuilt and reissued.

1945 - only January:
Tanks: 707
StuG/Jagdpanzer: 727
Armoured cars: 41
SPW: 796
SP-guns: 141
BIV charge carriers: 6

+ another ~2,700 tanks ~2,800 SP's lost between Feburary April 45, giving a total for 1945 of 6,937.

 

[Juha]

as I wrote earlier on 1 Feb 45 WM had well over 13.000 tanks and StuGs etc in hand, they manyfactured still more, Hahn doesn't have sure info on German AFV losses from that date onwards, you claimed that they were not lost, what happened to them

Juha

 

[Soren]

So this would be the final figures.

1939: 229
1940: 822
1941: 2,950
1942: 3,282
1943: 9,594
1944: 14,692
1945: ~2,700 + ~2,800 SP's

 

[Juha]

So You claim that WM had well over 10.000 tanks, StuGs etc when Germany surrendered? Can you give clues where they were? Huge majority were not in combat units, so where they were?

 

[Soren]

as I wrote earlier on 1 Feb 45 WM had well over 13.000 tanks and StuGs etc in hand, they manyfactured still more, Hahn doesn't have sure info on German AFV losses from that date onwards, you claimed that they were not lost, what happened to them

Juha

Are you claiming that the Germans lost some 13,000 tanks in combat in the space of 3 months? Sorry but that's just downright ridiculous. A more accurate figure would be less than half that.

Many of the Panzers which stood intact in May 1945 were within Allied hands and probably never made it to the loss figures seeing they were simply seized by the Allies. The Allies also seized plenty of finished tanks aircraft standing ready at their own factores just waiting to be taken to the front.

Also what about the thousands of tanks lost to Allied bombing near their own factories in 1945? What about those Juha?

I'm sure that subtracting the amount destroyed by Allied bombing around 5,000 to 6,000 German AFV's were left at wars end, many at their own factories, and many left there because there were no'one to man them. The majority of all these left over tanks were scrapped and remelted after the war.

Yes, a lot more tanks were available and being made in 1945 than there were crews ready to man them.

 

[Juha]

Hello Soren
Quote:" Many of the Panzers which stood intact in May 1945 were within Allied hands and probably never made it to the loss figures seeing they were simply seized by the Allies. The Allies also seized plenty of finished tanks…"

Now Allies captured numerous tanks etc before Germany surrendered, yes? Now usually if enemy captured one's weapons, the original owner had lost them. Also Soviets captured German tanks etc, so Germans lost them. Yes?

Quote:" Also what about the thousands of tanks lost to Allied bombing near their own factories in 1945?"

How many tanks were lost to Allied bombing in 44 near their own factories, 2-3 times more? After all in 45 Allied have time to bomb only some 4 months, 44 12 months. And the fanny part, IMHO most of us think that if a 500lb bomb hit a panzer and destroyed it, the Germans lost it, so those lost in bombings were also lost. And remember that those 13.000+ in WM's hand were not in factories, some were of course in tank parks and could be destroyed there, of course, but Germans still lost them. Did VVS bombers ever hit panzers? How many were lost by Soviet bombing, what is your guess?

Quote:" I'm sure that subtracting the amount destroyed by Allied bombing around 5,000 to 6,000 German AFV's were left at wars end, many at their own factories, and many left there because there were no'one to man them."

Now some were left in their own factories but not in huge numbers, or at least I have never photos which showed hundreds of complete AFVs in German factories after VE Day. And those PzDs, incl 1., 3., 6. and 23.PzDs and 1., 2., 3., 12. SSPzDs, which retreat from Western Hungary to Austria near end of March 45 were almost without AFVs but still had many tankmen left, so there were lot of trained tankmen around without tanks, Stugs etc in Apr 45 near the big tank factories in Austria. Surely Germans tried to use those complete AFVs in factories, at least they send men from Western Front to pick up new JagdTigers from Austrian factories at that time or in March 45, I cannot remember for sure the month.

Juha

 

[Soren]

So German tank SP losses are:

1939: 229
1940: 822
1941: 2,950
1942: 3,282
1943: 9,594
1944: 14,692
1945: 6,937
________________
Total = 38,506 tanks SP's lost

Leaving 8,430 tanks SP's which were in part bombed to destruction in 1945, captured intact at their factories, exported and finally the ones surrendered by the Germans at the end of the war. Of that number roughly 4,000 tanks SP's were left at wars end, most of which were scrapped remelted, the rest being transported to other countries for evaluation or field use. Subtract from the figure also the tanks exported to allies during WW2. In the end we arrive at around 46,400 tanks SP's.

 

[Soren]

Picture from Krupp factory at Magdeburg April 20th 1945:

 

[Soren]

When the German factories were bombed in 1945 Juha, they were full. And the tanks which were lost there never made it to the loss figures as they were never registered with the Wehrmacht.