Russia marks anniversary of its best tank

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I am sick of this ****!

Here is another good thread with a lot of good information about to go down the drain because two members (m kenny and Soren) have to act like a bunch of ****ing children! Yes both of you!

This is the last and final warning!

If I hear any more personal attacks out of both of you and that includes your typical (Allied this bullshit and German this bullshit) you are both banned!

Consider yourself warned! NO more warnings! Ban shall be permanant as well! Keep your ****ing childish bullshit off of our boards! Do it privately or go some place else!

 

[parsifal]

What is Pz IV/70? maybe the jagdpanzer IV with 75/70?

Yes, correct Vincenzo

 

[parsifal]

Listen to the Mod guys, he's serious. You guys have so much knowledge I just dont get why the differing point of view have to deteriorate to the lowest denominator all the time. And yes, I know I am guilty of that as well, but you guys are experts. I consider you both to be friends of mine incidentally

 

[Soren]

I am just gonna stop discussing with him, I think it's the only solution. I don't want to be booted over an argument with another member..

 

[Njaco]

Don't know if this helps the discusion but from "WWII Data Book" by John Ellis:

pg 277

Total Tank and SPG production for,
1944 - 19,002
1945 - 3,932

Tanks and SPG with 75mm guns and above,
1944 - 18,576
1945 - 4,000

Soren, just a word of advice. Sometimes what you are trying to say doesn't come out in your posts and others can misread and the argument begins. As a case in point:

"46,936 tanks SP's were lost by the Germans, ~38,506 in combat.

That leaves ~8,430 tanks SP's which had one of the following fates:
1. Surrendered by the Germans at the end of the war
2. Found intact at factories but not yet registered with the Wehrmacht
3. Destroyed in or around the factories by Allied bombing
4. Exported to other countries
5. Found abandoned around Germany Austria for no apparent reason

And of the ~38,506 lost in combat many were captured, abandoned, blown up by their own crews, esp. in late 1944 to 1945."

Sounds like you're splitting hairs saying that "combat losses" included abandonment while saying those "non-combat losses" also includes abandonment. Its confusing.

 

[Soren]

My mistake Njaco, for nr.5 on the list I meant found abandoned after the war had ended. As you can see there were still very large areas controlled by the Germans when the war ended, and a lot of vehicles were found there. Where'as many of the combat losses were tanks which abandoned during the war because the situation demanded it, like having run out of fuel or broken down with the enemy right at their heels.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I am just gonna stop discussing with him, I think it's the only solution. I don't want to be booted over an argument with another member..

How about you just act like an adult! That goes for you as well m kenny!

 

[Soren]

How about you just act like an adult! That goes for you as well m kenny!

Just to be fair I only made that comment to point out that him saying this:

Huh...? Did you even read what you wrote?

All the time. Usualy it is the only sensible input!

- Was very arrogant and rude towards 'everyone' on this forum. It was not an attempt at offending him as I didn't recognize it as the joke, which he claims it was. Instead of merely pointing that out however he chose to fire it back at me.

So not an attempt at throwing mud on my part, and that's not an excuse, just being honest.

 

[Juha]

Hello Alejandro
I think they refer this book: Waffen und Geheimwaffen des Deutschen Heeres 1933-1945: Amazon.de: Fritz Hahn: Bücher

Mine is older two volume work of same title, from year 1987, AFV and loss info in it are in the Band 2, Panzer- und Sonderfahrzeuge, "Wunderwaffen", Verbrauch und Verluste. Hopefully Soren or Kurfürst will confirm this.

Juha

 

[Juha]

If one counted from production tables in Chamberlain's, Doyle's and Jentz's Encycl. Of German Tanks of WWII (1993), maybe easiest source even if it gives a bit too low production figures for 1945 (it gives for ex Hetzer 45 production as 1127 when 1256 (+80 Berge) were produced) and took along SP-guns but AA-tanks because the wide variety of roles Soviets used SU-76, one got 51.142. The figure is some hundreds too low but a good approximation. Then subtract exports, 1.159 to war partners (this is corrected figure, MBI's Hetzer book confirmed that the source which gave the higher figure for Hetzers given/sold to Hungarians, which I have used following the benefit of doubt principle, was in error. At same time added the 10 given to ROA), few hundreds Pz Is to Spain and China in late 30s. Several hundreds scrapped but at least with a/c Soviet loss records included scrapped a/c so probably we can forget those. In Scandinavia and Courland there were only some hundreds AFVs and rather exact numbers can be found for ex in Hahn's book. Only difficult area is that between Protectorate/Czech and Northernmost Italy, inclusive. I'd say at most a couple thousands there.

Those found intact at factories but not yet registered with the Wehrmacht, IMHO only some maybe a couple hundred at most, at least no one had produced any evidence of vast amount of these or those claimed to be destroyed in or around the factories by Allied bombing. Bombing had big impact on production but that is a different thing.

Juha

 

[Juha]

Hello
checking from later sources it seems that actual German production in 45 was a couple hundreds higher than what is given in Chamberlain's, Doyle's and Jentz's book. So production in 45 was 4217+ tanks, StuGs, StuHs, StuPzs, JgPzs, Nashorns and Hummels.

Juha

 

[Njaco]

Thats about the number Ellis gives in his book, although he states "around 4,000".

 

[Juha]

Hello Njaco
Yes, the latest info only makes some adjustments to for ex those figures in Chamberlain's, Doyle's and Jentz's book, in which most production figures for 1945 are right but for some AFVs there are some increases and for a few even little decreases.

Juha

 

[alejandro_]

Hello Alejandro
I think they refer this book: Waffen und Geheimwaffen des Deutschen Heeres 1933-1945: Amazon.de: Fritz Hahn: Bücher

Thanks a lot Juha.