Sherman V T-34 V Panzer IV.....?

Juha · Apr 28, 2009

Hello Parsifal
thanks for the excellent link!

Juha

rickytractors · May 4, 2009

SOREN you said that the T34/85 had a rough ride. I can tell you with experience that no it has a very smooth ride in one on Sunday 3rd may at the IWM DUXFORD

This very tank and if i correct the words on the side say BERLIN OR BUST Ricky.

Vassili Zaitzev · May 4, 2009

Hmm, I think I saw that tank doing a demonstration when I was in Duxford a few years back.

rickytractors · May 4, 2009

Frist WW2 tank ride driven a CRAV and a warrier. Ricky

Soren · May 4, 2009

Having sat in one myself I have to disagree Ricky, it was a VERY rough ride.

Also quite amusingly the Iron Maiden lead singer Bruce Dickinson, being a tank enthusiast and a lover of the T-34, makes it quite clear that it required a lot of stamina to drive.

Also have a look at this, from 1:20 min forwards, the British host drives the T-34: View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujekMB2tyvI

Vassili Zaitzev · May 4, 2009

Cool.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · May 4, 2009

I have never ridden in any tank that was a "smooth" ride.

Soren · May 4, 2009

Me neither.

rickytractors · May 4, 2009

If you ever get the chance a CRAV or challenger will blow you mined away for smoothnes the faster you go the smoother the ride due to the surspention

tomo pauk · May 4, 2009

Soren said:
...

Also quite amusingly the Iron Maiden lead singer Bruce Dickinson, being a tank enthusiast and a lover of the T-34, makes it quite clear that it required a lot of stamina to drive.

...

[Completely off-topic]
Iron Maiden rocks!!! At least they id in Split, Croatia, last year
[/Completely off-topic]

Kiwikid · May 21, 2009

Aren't you guys forgetting the British Sherman Firefly ?

This was the M4 Sherman with a long barreled 17 Pounder (76.2mm) high velocity gun.

The Americans didn't want the Firefly, but whilst the US Army kept debating it in 1943, the British got on with it. The Firefly could and did take on both the Tiger and Panther successfully.

Amsel · May 21, 2009

Kiwikid said:
Aren't you guys forgetting the British Sherman Firefly ?

This was the M4 Sherman with a long barreled 17 Pounder (76.2mm) high velocity gun.

The Americans didn't want the Firefly, but whilst the US Army kept debating it in 1943, the British got on with it. The Firefly could and did take on both the Tiger and Panther successfully.

What was the argument about?

Vassili Zaitzev · May 21, 2009

Amsel said:
What was the argument about?

I think we didn't want a foreing gun in our tanks. Don't know why that would be a problem though, pride maybe?

Messy1 · May 21, 2009

Pride was the reason, IIRC Vassili.

Soren · May 21, 2009

Kiwikid said:
Aren't you guys forgetting the British Sherman Firefly ?

This was the M4 Sherman with a long barreled 17 Pounder (76.2mm) high velocity gun.

The Americans didn't want the Firefly, but whilst the US Army kept debating it in 1943, the British got on with it. The Firefly could and did take on both the Tiger and Panther successfully.

Problem with the Firefly was that whilst it carried a great gun its' armour was the same as that of the regular M4s, i.e. waay too thin. This meant that the Firefly was as vulnerable to a Pz.IV, the main German battle tank, as vice versa.

The EasyEight on the other hand featured increased armour protection, wider tracks (US tanks had a habbit of getting stuck where German tanks just plowed through), wedstorage (Solving the matchlight issue the Sherman was so famous for) and an improved long barrelled 76mm gun.

Soren · May 21, 2009

Messy1 said:
Pride was the reason, IIRC Vassili.

Hmm.. whilst I can't rule it out, I think pride had very little to do with it. I think the US engineers rightly realized that the 17 pdr took up a lot of space in the small turret, and the bigger rounds meant less stored ammunition. It seems that the 76mm gun was chosen as a sort of middle ground between the short 75mm gun and the very powerful 17 pdr.

The lighter gun (Compared to the 17 pdr), which was adequate against the Pz.IV, meant more armour and various other valuable features could be added for roughly the same weight.

Messy1 · May 21, 2009

I may be thinking of another tank Soren, I thought there was one tank the US used in WW2 where the better gun that was made out of the US was not chosen. I may have seen something on either the history or Military channe, so I am not sure of the accuracyl. It may have been on the show where tank restorations are filmed.

Kiwikid · May 22, 2009

The problem of a bigger breach inside the turet was solved by cutting a new hatch above the gunner's position to solve the problem of escape. The other problem of storage was solved by getting rid of the 5th crewman beside the driver. These were the issues which the US Army debated in 1943. The US Army took 100 Fireflys and then refused to put them in action. Kind of bizarre.

Problem with the Firefly was that whilst it carried a great gun its' armour was the same as that of the regular M4s, i.e. waay too thin. This meant that the Firefly was as vulnerable to a Pz.IV, the main German battle tank, as vice versa.

Given the choice of sitting in a Ronson Lighter with a pea shooter, no doubt many M4 crews up against Michael Wittmann who saw their rounds bounce off would have much preferred to differ with you.

It had a gun able to punch through 130mm of armour at 1000 metres and with APDS it could penetrate 200mm of armour.

At Normandy one Firefly took on the 3rd Company SS 12th Panzer Regiment at Norrey-en-Bessin on 9 June 1944. That Firefly took on 12 Panthers and killed 7, repulsing the other Panthers which fled.

Another Firefly of 4th/7th Dragoon at the village of Lingèvres on 14 June 1944, near Tilly-sur-Seulles took on five Panthers and killed each one with a single shot.

The most famous Firefly battle on 8 August 1944 saw a group of Fireflys at the village of Saint-Aignan-de-Cramesnil ambush an advancing column of 7 Tigers supported by Panzer IV and Stug IV, wiping out the entire column.

The bulk of 2500 Panzers at Normandy confronted British lines rather than American lines and without the Firefly the only working Mulberry harbour at Arromanches may well have been destroyed. Without the Firefly the German counter attack on 9 June 1944 could well have destroyed the entire D-Day landings.

The problem with the Easy Eight was that it didn't show up at Normandy and did not reach ETO until December 1944. Meantime the simple Firefly just kept on killing Panthers and Tigers.

Soren · May 22, 2009

I can\t find German losses which correspond to the above claims Kiwikid.

As for the Ronson lighter, have you read about the EasyEight ? It featured wedstorage which meant it didnt light up anywhere near as easily as the regular M4. And as for the 76mm gun, it wasnt a peashooter, it was a potent weapon able to take on most German tanks at normal combat ranges. Only when up against the German heavies was it lacking in power, but how many heavy tanks did the German have ? Answer is not that many. The main opponent met by Allied tank crews was the Pz.IV, and the EasyEight was a match for this tank.

According to my research more Fireflys ended up burning wrecks than actually knowking out German tanks.

renrich · May 22, 2009

My memory may be faulty but I believe the Shermans did poorly in Korea against the NK T34s.

Sherman V T-34 V Panzer IV.....?

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