SMS Ostfriesland and Billy Mitchell

[FLYBOYJ]

I posted the link to this earlier - Mitchell's Agenda?

General Mitchell Advocates Single Air Service.

After World War I, General Mitchell, who commanded the Army Air Service in Pershing's Army in France during the war, returned to America and began a vigorous campaign to organize and to operate US Military aviation on the British pattern - this is, he advocated merging US Army and US Navy aviation into a single separate organization, entirely independent of the Army and the Navy, and co-equal to them.

In his drive for a single air service, Mitchell proclaimed that airplanes could sink battleships. He declared that aviation would make ground armies and surface navies obsolete - a prophecy that has yet to be realized. He maintained that aircraft therefore should be controlled, developed, and operated by a single centralized government agency, completely independent from the Army and the Navy.

The historical significance of the bombing experiments is that they marked another milestone in the age old competition between the attacking weapon and passive defense - like the spear against the shield - the gun against armor, and then the aerial bomb against an armored ship. But psychologically it marked the beginning of the long series of disputes among the services over the cognizance of weapons; first between the Air Force and the Navy over aviation, and later between the Air Force and the Army and the Navy over missiles.

The Naval Bombing Experiments

I think what you fail to understand is that there were some US Admirals who believed that battleship couldn't be sunk by aircraft PERIOD! And there were some within the US Navy who were silently rooting for Mitchell as his cause would eventually help Naval Aviation

 

[The Basket]

If you build 10 battleships then battleships are not obsolete. Considering the steel and skills and money required then riddle me this....

Why were Battleships made in the WW2? Coz that would have to be a lot of stupid.

So therefore Mitchell's point or theory was ignored for well over 20 years.

And this idea of an independent air force which was so revolutionary and cutting edge was done years before by the RAF in 1918.

Hardly a ringing endorsement.

I cannot add any more if you don't either see that or realise that.

Mitchell did say that there would be 1,000mph aircraft which was quite a mind jump for 1920s thinking. So I give him that.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

If you build 10 battleships then battleships are not obsolete. Considering the steel and skills and money required then riddle me this....

Why were Battleships made in the WW2? Coz that would have to be a lot of stupid.

It was! And hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20!!!

So therefore Mitchell's point or theory was ignored for well over 20 years.

YES - I think now you're getting it!

And this idea of an independent air force which was so revolutionary and cutting edge was done years before by the RAF in 1918.

To some in the US Army and Navy it was!!!! They did not want to give up control and money to another armed service.

Hardly a ringing endorsement.

I cannot add any more if you don't either see that or realise that.

There's nothing to see or realize!!!

Mitchell did say that there would be 1,000mph aircraft which was quite a mind jump for 1920s thinking. So I give him that.

And at the end of the day...

*MITCHELL, WILLIAM

AN ACT Authorizing the President of the United States to award posthumously in the name of Congress a Medal of Honor to William Mitchell.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the President of the United States is requested to cause a gold medal to be struck, with suitable emblems, devices and inscriptions, to be presented to the late William Mitchell, formerly a Colonel, United States Army, in recognition of his outstanding pioneer service and foresight in the field of American military aviation.

SEC. 2. When the medal provided for in section I of this Act shall have been struck, the President shall transmit the same to William Mitchell, Junior, son of the said William Mitchell, to be presented to him in the name of the people of the United States.

SEC. 3. A sufficient sum of money to carry this Act into effect is hereby authorized to be appropriated, out of money in the Treasury not otherwise appropriated.

Approved August 8, 1946. Private Law 884.

Medal of Honor Recipients on Film: William Mitchell

 

[The Basket]

I will leave it here.

I do not agree with a word you say!

But I accept that other people can hold different views regardless of how wrong they can be.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I will leave it here.

I do not agree with a word you say!

But I accept that other people can hold different views regardless of how wrong they can be.

Yep - especially those who ignore documented facts, but that's ok!

 

[Reluctant Poster]

I'm not sure I am following your logic. Mitchel's test proved two things:

1 - Air power alone could indeed sink a capital ship which regardless of the hindsight from today was not widely believed at the time.
2 - Said capital ships were not equipped to properly deal with air attacks.

From that information, at least 2 things can be done:

a) - Continue to improve the ability for airpower to destroy naval targets (which was done)
b) - Improve capital ships ability to deal with air attacks (which was partially done)

The smallest guns the Ostfriesland was equipped with were 14 x 88mm anti-torpedo boat guns and the mounts do not appear to have the ability to elevate to engage aircraft, though I could be mistaken as I cannot find a very clear picture, so zero protection from the air.

At the time of Pearl Harbor the USS Arizona was equipped with 8 x 5" & 8 x .50 MG AA guns, and was going to be equipped with at least 2 x 1.1" AA guns mounts of 3 or 4 barrels each IIRC.

During the Battle of Sanata Cruz Islands, the USS South Dakota was equipped with 16 x 5", 68 x 40mm and 76 x 20mm AA guns.

During Pearl Harbor the Japanese lost 29 aircraft while attacking all the US bases and ships. During the Battle of Sanata Cruz Islands, the USS South Dakota on it's own shot down 26 Japanese aircraft.

Taranto and Pearl Harbor reiterated point #2 above and the raids would never have happened if point #1 had not been proven.

I look at his tests like going to the moon, the first test you conduct is not putting a man on the moon, but seeing if you can even make it into space.

IMHO Battleships still have a part to play, which is why the Russians still field Kirov class battlecruisers. The final refurbishment of the Iowa's were the removal of turret 3 and a flight deck installed for Harriers. Today those would have been replaced with F-35Cs and it would have been a potent platform.

The South Dakota claim of 26 aircraft is suspect. The Japanese lost less than 100 planes.

 

[Acheron]

The military leadership should at least have learnt from the Ostfriesland to keep an eye out for future development of aircraft's anti-ship-capabilities and ships' anti-air-capabilities and armor. They just might have seen, that aircraft improved considerably faster than AAA or armor.