Some 7th AF documentation of fighter escort for B29's over Japan.

[BiffF15]

It's no surprise you noticed them

Ed Linfante, a 506 Mustang driver who flew "Shanghai Lil" said they were were supposed to be used as an aid for dive-bombing. Your height and distance aside of the target before you dived dictated which line to use, higher altitude meant using a stripe further out from the fuselage.

Every 506th Mustang had those stripes and I don't think any other Mustang units in the Pacific used them, only the 506th.

I had a feeling it was for some form of ground attack as their point of origin seemed to be the cockpit / pilots cranium. In the two planes I flew that dropped ordinance we had reference points (unmarked) that we used for certain attacks.

Cheers,
Biff

 

[Peter Gunn]

I had a feeling it was for some form of ground attack as their point of origin seemed to be the cockpit / pilots cranium. In the two planes I flew that dropped ordinance we had reference points (unmarked) that we used for certain attacks.

Cheers,
Biff

We need a "COOL" icon in the "LIKES" bar for stuff like this!

 

[Mike Williams]

Escort B-29s to Nagoya. Mission Report 26 June 1945, 45th Fighter Squadron, 15th Fighter Group.



45th Fighter Squadron:

 

[fubar57]

In the last few reports I've noticed the use of "Fiteron" when mentioning fighter squadrons. I've only read European Theatre combat reports up until this thread and have never seen this word mentioned so is this a Pacific Theatre only use?

 

[windhund116]

In the last few reports I've noticed the use of "Fiteron" when mentioning fighter squadrons. I've only read European Theatre combat reports up until this thread and have never seen this word mentioned so is this a Pacific Theatre only use?

Especially late WW2, Pacific USAAF P51 units. On specific missions (usually escort). No Google help.

 

[Juha3]

Agreed, the Iwo Mustangs are a bit overlooked in the grand scheme of WWII. Here is a pretty decent site for some of them though: 506th Fighter Group Home: 506th Fighter Group, 457 Fighter Squadron, 458 Fighter Squadron, 462 Fighter Squadron Iwo To Japan

I have two books on the subject, Carl Molesworth, Very Long Range Mustang Units of the Pacific War, Osprey Aviation Elite Units 21 and John W. Lambert, The Pineapple Air Force: Pearl Harbor to Tokio. The latter had some 70 pages on the subject.

 

[Peter Gunn]

Escort B-29s to Nagoya. Mission Report 26 June 1945, 45th Fighter Squadron, 15th Fighter Group.

View attachment 599757View attachment 599758

45th Fighter Squadron:
View attachment 599759

I would say that if nothing else, that was one well guarded Superfort, I can't imagine any harassment by Japanese aircraft against him.

 

[Mike Williams]

Escort B-29s to Tokyo. Mission Report 7 April 1945, 45th Fighter Squadron, 15th Fighter Group.



45th Fighter Squadron at Iwo Jima:

 

[fubar57]

Interesting that the pilots could mistake a George for a Mary

 

[Mike Williams]

Interesting that the pilots could mistake a George for a Mary

View attachment 599895
View attachment 599896​

Yeah, that's pretty bad. Presumably gun camera film sorted it out. 7 April 1945 was the 15th FG's first escort mission to Japan and most of the pilots were green to aerial combat encounters, which might explain such bad aircraft ID in part.

 

[Jeffrey Ethell Collection]

Regarding the poor recognition skills of of USAAF fighter pilots. This was NOT a case of mistaken Aircraft ID but rather mistaken AC with undercarriage lowered.

What you guys don't know is that with the N1K1-J Shiden (aka George) the pilots used a technique to not only tighten the turn radius but slow the AC almost to stalling speed. The George had a unique design feature - wing flaps called combat flaps which operated automatically to increase "lift" during tight turns. Here's the thing, one brave pilot learned that lowering the landing gear to slow the aircraft (probably dangerously) during the time the combat flaps activated would slow it dramatically while the combat flaps maintained lift. With high engine RPM the 4 blade paddle prop would literally hang the big fighter in the air and the Allied fighter would overshoot and so Japanese pilot retracts the UC and latches onto his tail. Seconds later and the P-51 is pumped full of 20mm cannon shells. Combat over.

I would bet this Allied pilot saw a George with its UC lowered performing the manouever just described and thought it looked the Ki-32 Mary when describing it to the AF Intel Officer who would have confirmed it with reference to his Japanese Aircraft Recognition Manual. This use of combat flaps and UC lowering is recorded in Henry Sakaida's book "Genda's Blade".

James

 

[Mike Williams]

Regarding the poor recognition skills of of USAAF fighter pilots. This was NOT a case of mistaken Aircraft ID but rather mistaken AC with undercarriage lowered.

What you guys don't know is that with the N1K1-J Shiden (aka George) the pilots used a technique to not only tighten the turn radius but slow the AC almost to stalling speed. The George had a unique design feature - wing flaps called combat flaps which operated automatically to increase "lift" during tight turns. Here's the thing, one brave pilot learned that lowering the landing gear to slow the aircraft (probably dangerously) during the time the combat flaps activated would slow it dramatically while the combat flaps maintained lift. With high engine RPM the 4 blade paddle prop would literally hang the big fighter in the air and the Allied fighter would overshoot and so Japanese pilot retracts the UC and latches onto his tail. Seconds later and the P-51 is pumped full of 20mm cannon shells. Combat over.

I would bet this Allied pilot saw a George with its UC lowered performing the manouever just described and thought it looked the Ki-32 Mary when describing it to the AF Intel Officer who would have confirmed it with reference to his Japanese Aircraft Recognition Manual. This use of combat flaps and UC lowering is recorded in Henry Sakaida's book "Genda's Blade".

James

Thanks for the information. I'm uncertain if your theory applies in this instance. Please see attached Encounter Report of the downing of the misidentified aircraft. The encounter report noted "He did not take any evasive action". The Mission Report noted "The Mary George took no evasive action before or after being hit".

 

[Mike Williams]

Interesting that the pilots could mistake a George for a Mary

View attachment 599895
View attachment 599896​

The encounter report shown above reported "The bogey resembled a Tojo from the tail and a Mary in the center section". Thoughts?

 

[Jeffrey Ethell Collection]

Mike,

The key question is do we take the ID literally as a "Ki-32 Mary" which has fixed undercarriage or do we take it as Ki-32 Mary "center section" plus Ki-44 Tojo tail only?

Of course the N1K1-J Shiden (George) does not even vaguely resemble a Ki-32 Mary.

There is a resemblance to the Ki-44 tail if you compare with N1K1-J above.

If we say it looked like Ki-32 Mary "center section" only then here are some of the profiles of the many Japanese AC that description might refer to:

The big problem with J-Aircraft Recognition is the limited description given by the Intel Officer who interviews the pilots. And of course it goes without saying the P-51 pilots saw the Japanese aircraft for all of a second or two and who can really focus on the fine points of recognition given it is just a fleeting glimpse?

Because of all the factors affecting recognition accuracy I would say the chance of a correct ID of the aircraft is 50:50 or even money at best.

James

 

[GreenKnight121]

I have heard of airborne early warning radar sets carried by Avengers which had a detection range of up to 100 miles, but I know little about it's actual wartime application. This was basically the beginning of the AWACS concept.

When I was at "A" school in 1970 there was, among the historical photos (sans captions) decorating the walls, a photo of an Avenger with a huge radar dome protruding from its bomb bay that looked a lot like the belly dome on an EC121 Constellation. I think the Connie used an APS22 radar. No idea about the Avenger. I remember hearing that the Avenger's successor, the Guardian, used that set also

Project Cadillac (Part I)
Project Cadillac (Part II)
Project Cadillac (Part III)
Project Cadillac II (PB-1W)

On the West coast, training in the TBM-3W for pilots and crewmen was undertaken by the Fleet Airborne Electronics Training Unit (FAETU) in preparation for deployment. While the crews were in training, the USS Ranger (CV-4), recently returned from delivering aircraft to allied forces in Casablanca, entered Norfolk Naval Shipyard 17 May 1945 for a six-week overhaul, during which a CIC and the Cadillac shipboard equipment were installed. Underway again in July, she arrived at North Island on July 25th where she loaded aboard her airwing. This airwing was different from the conventional wing in that it included several developmental concepts; among these were the Cadillac configured TBM-3Ws and the Night Air Combat Training Unit from Barber's Point. By August 1945 she was in Hawaiian waters conducting final CQ prior to leaving for Japanese waters when the war ended.

The TBM-3W Avenger had the AN/APS-20 radar in a belly-mounted dome - the same radar was placed into the Grumman Guardian, the Douglas Skyraider, and the Boeing B-17 (PB-1W, which was used operationally in the Korean Conflict).

In RN service it was used in Skyraiders, transferred into Fairey Gannets, and finally ended up in Avro Shackletons in the 1970s!

 

[Mike Williams]

Mike,

The key question is do we take the ID literally as a "Ki-32 Mary" which has fixed undercarriage or do we take it as Ki-32 Mary "center section" plus Ki-44 Tojo tail only?

Of course the N1K1-J Shiden (George) does not even vaguely resemble a Ki-32 Mary.

View attachment 600121

View attachment 600116

View attachment 600117

If we say it looked like Ki-32 Mary "center section" only then here are some of the profiles of the many Japanese AC that description might refer to:

View attachment 600118

View attachment 600119

View attachment 600120

The big problem with J-Aircraft Recognition is the limited description given by the Intel Officer who interviews the pilots. And of course it goes without saying the P-51 pilots saw the Japanese aircraft for all of a second or two and who can really focus on the fine points of recognition given it is just a fleeting glimpse?

Because of all the factors affecting recognition accuracy I would say the chance of a correct ID of the aircraft is 50:50 or even money at best.

James

Hi James, thanks for sharing those interesting silhouettes. As you've stated, the pilot saw the enemy aircraft but for a few seconds and as I've stated 7 April 45 was the group's first aerial combat over mainland Japan, so they had little to no experience. In the end, the intelligence officer who proof read and edited the mission report determined the downed aircraft was a George in spite of what the pilot thought he saw. Hardly a unique occurrence. I do wonder though what a George was doing by itself "flying parallel to the bombers and at the same speed" amongst two Fighter Groups worth of P-51s. This image from the 47th FS, sister squadron to the 45th, shows that the pilots were at least informed as to what aircraft they might encounter.

 

[Peter Gunn]

Mike,

The key question is do we take the ID literally as a "Ki-32 Mary" which has fixed undercarriage or do we take it as Ki-32 Mary "center section" plus Ki-44 Tojo tail only?

Of course the N1K1-J Shiden (George) does not even vaguely resemble a Ki-32 Mary.

View attachment 600121

View attachment 600116

View attachment 600117

If we say it looked like Ki-32 Mary "center section" only then here are some of the profiles of the many Japanese AC that description might refer to:

View attachment 600118

View attachment 600119

View attachment 600120

The big problem with J-Aircraft Recognition is the limited description given by the Intel Officer who interviews the pilots. And of course it goes without saying the P-51 pilots saw the Japanese aircraft for all of a second or two and who can really focus on the fine points of recognition given it is just a fleeting glimpse?

Because of all the factors affecting recognition accuracy I would say the chance of a correct ID of the aircraft is 50:50 or even money at best.

James

Fair point, I was distracted by the P-39 thread but was going to mention this type of issue, a fairly green Mustang driver on his first Empire mission and only got a few seconds look at the E/A so I can totally believe he could mix the two up.

Thanks for posting the silhouettes, they're cool.

 

[Barrett]

Please share the balance if that's ok? I've seen a similar article in (Flight Journal, Ridgefield CT, Summer 2002) by Barrett Tillman, Mustangs of Iwo Jima

Mike, no problem on my end. That's one of the articles I'm happiest to have written because mid-late 70s there were still plenty of vets, and Gen. Mickey Moore was especially helpful. It's been reprinted a coupla times including in AF Magazine and at one time it was on the 506th FG site.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

The TBM-3W Avenger had the AN/APS-20 radar in a belly-mounted dome - the same radar was placed into the Grumman Guardian, the Douglas Skyraider, and the Boeing B-17 (PB-1W, which was used operationally in the Korean Conflict).

Thanks for the links to Project Cadillac! Fascinating stuff. When I got out of "A" School I got assigned to a FAETULANT det, but by that time the FAETUs were not doing any airborne training or operating any aircraft, just ground based Operational Flight Trainers and Weapons System Trainers. This was soon reflected in an organizational name change to Fleet Aviation Specialized Operational Training Group detachments. FASOTRAGRULANT Det Boca Chica, for short.
Back in early cold war days, our det had operated and trained in EC121s and E1s, and later, specially instrumented S2s for maintenance training, when the East Coast S2 community was based there. When "Vietnamization" and general armed force downsizing set in, circa 1969-70, the S2 folks all got shipped off to Quonset.

 

[MIflyer]

I noticed that they said they flew from Iwo to 40 miles from Japan at 10,000 and then climbed to 23,000 ft. I assume that was to enable them to save their oxygen until they needed it. Above 10,000 ft is the point where you normally start using oxygen for aircrew.