Sorens Really What If Thread

[Soren]

And how would the RN been sunk without a chance. Sorry Soren but the RN is more powerful than you think it is. How the hell do you think it survived anyhow? By sitting in the harbor hiding.

Here's how it is..

Without any RAF, the RN wasnt mighty, it was just big. And any attempted to escape by the RN, would be abruptly halted by axis aircraft.

I have to disagree Soren while the LW could have interferred and harrased it could never have stopped the RN getting away.

I ask again, how could the RN defend itself with no RAF to back it up ?

Ships are slow, aircraft are not.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

How did the Japanese and American Ships protect themselves when the dive bombers and torpedo bombers get through the fighter cover in the PTO. The RN would do the same!

 

[Gnomey]

There were enough ships in the RN that if they tried to break out there would have been enough AA fire to at least stop some of the attackers. Even then some of the ships would have been sunk. Look at Crete the RN had very little air support and yet the LW didn't manage to sink the part of the RN that was there only sink a few ships.

Admiral Cunningham said the following during the Crete evacuation

It takes 3 years to build a ship it take 300 years to build a tradition. We're going back

That sums the attitude the RN would have had to an invasion of Britain they would not of given up despite taking (possibably heavy) losses.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I am sure the RN would have lost quite a few ships but not eneogh to allow a German Invasion fleet through.

 

[Soren]

How did the Japanese and American Ships protect themselves when the dive bombers and torpedo bombers get through the fighter cover in the PTO.The RN would do the same!

With aircraft, problem is there are none, and flak is far from enough. (Even up close as the Japs showed )

And remember the RN would also have to deal with the KriegsMarine aswell.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

You fail to see the point that not even the Luftwaffe could destroy eneogh of the RN. Why cant you see this?

Anyhow I am off. I have to get some sleep so that I can get up at 3 in the morning to watch the 49er game.

 

[Soren]

You fail to see the point that not even the Luftwaffe could destroy eneogh of the RN. Why cant you see this?

And you fail to see that the LW weren't alone, the Kriegsmarine would be there in all its might aswell.

Imagine what havoc U-boats would cause against a RN being simultaneously attacked by the LW.

Anyhow I am off. I have to get some sleep so that I can get up at 3 in the morning to watch the 49er game.

Alright, looking forward to continuing this debate with you tomorrow.

Night night.

 

[Nonskimmer]

There weren't enough U-boats to cover the Atlantic convoys as it was. Taking on a Royal Navy task force would have gotten them killed quickly.
And I don't know what all this talk about breaking out is for. The Royal Navy wouldn't have had to break out of anything. It was still the largest, most powerful, and probably still the most experienced navy in the world in 1940/41. Only the Imperial Japanese Navy really came close to even rivaling it at the time. The Kriegsmarine had a few brand new battleships and cruisers against a powerful foe who knew what they were doing, and who under the circumstances would have been more determined and resourceful than ever. Torpedo boats would have been a wily foe for the Brits in the channel perhaps, but not enough to bottle up the fleet. Even with air supremacy, taking out British defences wouldn't have been this cake-walk you envision.

And what were you talking about with France earlier, with respect to airborne forces? You never did fill me in.

 

[pbfoot]

the rn did wonderful work against airpower without topcover against the japanese the prince of wales and repulse were swatting them right out the air with little effort

 

[Nonskimmer]

They were both sunk though. Bad example.

 

[pbfoot]

and assuming most of the naval activity would be in the channel one could also assume the army artillery would certainly be a factor but again air power might not be the answer recalling the raf attempts at coord inating during the channel dash

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

You hit it right on the nail there NS.

Soren what U-Boots. The Germans did not have eneogh U-Boots yet and there Surface navy was not even ready for war. Hitlers admirals even said that it was not ready in 1939. What did they have that could possibly due anything to the RN while the Luftwaffe was attacking.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Sealion was impossible, even with the Royal Airforce defeated.

A frontal attack against a defence line, on too narrow a front, with no good prospect of suprise, with insfficient forces reinforced only in dribblets'

Field Marshal von Brauchitsch, commenting on 'Operation Sealion' in September 1940.

I think that sums it up really. Even German Army high command considered the plans for Operation Sealion the highest folly.

The German Navy wanted landings on a narrow front. It couldn't guarentee control of the chanel for more than a few days. The Army demanded a broad front landing, but didn't have the necessary sealift capacity to support it, without converting half the Kriegsmarine into troopships.

Halder (one of the German Army Chiefs of Staff) put it nicely in a August 14 memo to the Navy, referring to their desire for narrow front landings; "I might as well put the troops through a sausage machine"

Schniewind, the other Army Chief of Staff, noted that "the airborne troops can influence neither the weather or the sea; they cannot prevent the destruction and incapacitation of the few harours, nor hold off the enemy fleet, or even a small part of it' In the words of the German high command, Airborne troops could be used but they would not be of much influence to the main landings.

Initial German calculations for Sealion showed that they would need between 2 to 3 days to put ashore just the first wave of 13 divisions. The final August draft plan for Sealion reduced this to 9 divisions, with 2 airborne divisions supporting, but stretched the length of the landings to 9 days for just the first wave. To land the frontline elements of the 40 divisions that the Army requireded, at a minimum, to conquer England, it would take an estimated total of 40 days, without taking into account allowances for heavy or specalist equipment or logistic formations! There is little doubt that the Royal Navy would of done everything in its power to disrupt this further.

To support the landings the Germany Navy had made no commitments for artillery support, its primary role was to keep open a clear sea-lane between Calais and the Dover area. Two old 15 inch monitors were considered but dropped as it would take too long to refit them with sufficient anti-aircraft armament and anti-submarine capability. Artillery support, for the planned 50 mile wide landing in the inital phase, would be supported by just 27 costal patrol craft, fitted with 3 inch howitlers and 37mm cannon. Compare that to the support for the Allied landings in Italy, Sicily, North Africa and France and you can see just how deficient it was.

The German High Command planned to capture the ports of Folkstone on D+1 and Dover slightly later. Both were expected to have been damaged by British forces once landings started. The estimates of supply requirements of an infantry division were around 300-350 tons a day. Inital calculations were tah Folkstone could handle 150 tons a day, building to a maximum of 600 per day by D+8. Dover would have slightly higher capacity of 800 tons per day.

Considering that the initial wave was 9 infantry divisons and 2 airborne divisions then they would need a minimum of 3,300 tons of stroes, rations, ammunitionand other necessities every day. But Dover and Folkstone together could only supply 1400 tons per day, or less than one third of the suplies necessary to supply just the initial wave of troops. Siply put, even with the capture of two ports intact, Germany could support a mere 4 divisions.

At best Germany could of put across 3-4 divisons in early July and kept them supported and supplied with air and sea-lift capacity. Reinforcements of men could of been brought in IF airfields in the south had been captured IF the RAF had been completely defeated. Supplies and heavy equipment could of crossed the channel in sufficient amounts only IF the RN was defeated and IF the major ports had been captured undamaged.

So to launch Sealion sucessfully Germany needs to more than triple its sea-lift and supply capacity, capture several ports and airfields intact, defeat the numerically superior Royal Navy or prevent its interference, have the weather and seas behave appropriately, create a dedicated landing support artillery group, defeat both Fighter and Bomber Commands, make a wide landing without suprise against an entrenched enemy on a mined coastline and then carry out extended logistics operations with a minimum of supplies. Simple really

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yeap I really dont think it is debatable.

 

[Gnomey]

Yeap I really dont think it is debatable.

I agree Alder. Well put Jabberwocky.

 

[Lunatic]

How? They'd have hung back until the critical moment when Hitler made his move and wiped out his invasion force.

Hung back ? Lunatic, the RN would be sunk before even having the chance to escape.

Huh? What Luftwaffe' aircraft had the operational range to effectively engage the RN along the West Coast of Britian? The only attack aircraft the German's had which was likely to be successful against the RN was the Stuka and it had no where near the range. The HE111 was not well suited to such missions and it too lacked sufficient range. And w/o fighter escort the remnants of the RAF (pulled back out of range of German fightgers) would have had a field day eating Luftwaffe' bombers for lunch.

Look at the map and the ranges of the planes Soren.

Hitler didn't have the resources to build a Luftwaffe' large enought to stop that (especially at night).

Without any RAF, oh yes he had.

Jeeze, he had less than 2000 aircraft at the height of German power in the BoB, of which only a small fraction were capable of successful naval interdiction.

Sea-Lion was a fantasy cooked up in a cocain/amphetamine/morphine daze. The German's had no capacity for such an operation and had they tried it the war would have ended much earlier.

Read this essay: http://www.flin.demon.co.uk/althist/seal1.htm

Convinced?

Remember Lunatic, we're talking no'more RAF here.

And as your link suggests, the RAF would have had a huge part in defeating any invasion force.

Read it again. Even without the RAF the chances of the barges successfully crossing the channel were practically zero. A topedo boat or small destroyer making full speed through the channel would through up a wake sufficient to swamp them. And the odds of the Channel remaining calm enough for them to cross for the requisite 48 hours are practically nil.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Lunatic]

The RN was the most powerful fleet afloat in 1940 and it would have been impossible for the LW to destroy every single ship the RN possessed at the time and significant damage would have been done to the invasion fleet.

How is the RN going to protect itself against airial attacks with no RAF to back them up ? They were sitting ducks..

Just what aircraft was the Luftwaffe' going to deploy against the RN in 1940? They had about 600 Bf109's and about 750 bombers of all types at the height of their advantage. Of this, only the Stuka was suited to naval attack and it was not available in sufficient numbers nor did it have the range to pose much of a threat to the RN. The He111 was not well suited to attacking shipes and the Ju88 was only beginning to come on line. And German bombers werfe generally setup to carry too small a bomb to be effective anyway - and I think they lacked the Armor Percing bombs used by the Japanese entirely.

And the Luftwaffe lacked any capability to interdict the RN at night. The RN could easily move 200 miles at night and the Luftwaffe' could do nothing about it at. German planes simply lacked the range to do much about the RN if it were pulled back to the North and West.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[CurzonDax]

Several points on all of this yelling:

1. The Germans had nothing that even approached the power and mobility that the Allied airborne divisions had. Take for example the 82nd in Holland. Besides all of the infantry, whether they be paras or gliderborne troops, they were able to bring to play whole hospitals and arty batteries. German airborn units were, like someone said previously, disruption units. Allied airborne divisions, if well supplied and concentrated, with good support (like any other ID) could secure and hold objectives. Look again at the airborne divisions at D-Day. They were scattered and understrength but they held thier objectives. German paras, unless Hitler would have made the commitment to make them as "heavy" as allied airborne divisions, could not do this. A airborne attack on England in 1940, in ANY condition, in ANY what if scenerio, would have made Crete look like spring tea party compared to the massacre that the German paras would have gone through in southern England

2. As far as landing craft, the barges that the Germans were using were designed to be used in rivers and lakes and only if these bodies of water were as flat as a mirror. So yes, a destroyer, or heck, a PT boat with two baboons and a retarted Klingon could have swamped the fleet. The German Navy had nothing like LSTs, LCIs, LCVPs, LCMs, Amtracs, and DUKWs, to mention a few. So unless the Germans had invented transporters, in any what if situation, they would have never made it across, because in any what if scenario, the RN would still be there in strength.

3. Lastly, every time that Allied Elite met German Elite, the Germans always ended up with the short end of the stick. Study Carentan, Bastonge, and so on and so forth. Even in Cisterna, where the Rangers got mauled, they totally disrupted the attack.

:{)

 

[Gnomey]

How? They'd have hung back until the critical moment when Hitler made his move and wiped out his invasion force.

Hung back ? Lunatic, the RN would be sunk before even having the chance to escape.

Huh? What Luftwaffe' aircraft had the operational range to effectively engage the RN along the West Coast of Britian? The only attack aircraft the German's had which was likely to be successful against the RN was the Stuka and it had no where near the range. The HE111 was not well suited to such missions and it too lacked sufficient range. And w/o fighter escort the remnants of the RAF (pulled back out of range of German fightgers) would have had a field day eating Luftwaffe' bombers for lunch.

Look at the map and the ranges of the planes Soren.

Hitler didn't have the resources to build a Luftwaffe' large enought to stop that (especially at night).

Without any RAF, oh yes he had.

Jeeze, he had less than 2000 aircraft at the height of German power in the BoB, of which only a small fraction were capable of successful naval interdiction.

Sea-Lion was a fantasy cooked up in a cocain/amphetamine/morphine daze. The German's had no capacity for such an operation and had they tried it the war would have ended much earlier.

Read this essay: http://www.flin.demon.co.uk/althist/seal1.htm

Convinced?

Remember Lunatic, we're talking no'more RAF here.

And as your link suggests, the RAF would have had a huge part in defeating any invasion force.

Read it again. Even without the RAF the chances of the barges successfully crossing the channel were practically zero. A topedo boat or small destroyer making full speed through the channel would through up a wake sufficient to swamp them. And the odds of the Channel remaining calm enough for them to cross for the requisite 48 hours are practically nil.

=S=

Lunatic

Agreed Lunatic well put.

The RN was the most powerful fleet afloat in 1940 and it would have been impossible for the LW to destroy every single ship the RN possessed at the time and significant damage would have been done to the invasion fleet.

How is the RN going to protect itself against airial attacks with no RAF to back them up ? They were sitting ducks..

Just what aircraft was the Luftwaffe' going to deploy against the RN in 1940? They had about 600 Bf109's and about 750 bombers of all types at the height of their advantage. Of this, only the Stuka was suited to naval attack and it was not available in sufficient numbers nor did it have the range to pose much of a threat to the RN. The He111 was not well suited to attacking shipes and the Ju88 was only beginning to come on line. And German bombers werfe generally setup to carry too small a bomb to be effective anyway - and I think they lacked the Armor Percing bombs used by the Japanese entirely.

And the Luftwaffe lacked any capability to interdict the RN at night. The RN could easily move 200 miles at night and the Luftwaffe' could do nothing about it at. German planes simply lacked the range to do much about the RN if it were pulled back to the North and West.

=S=

Lunatic

Again well put Lunatic. The LW had no plane that could do any damage to the RN and the ones that could (Stuka/JU-88) either had to short a range or were not yet in service.

Several points on all of this yelling:

1. The Germans had nothing that even approached the power and mobility that the Allied airborne divisions had. Take for example the 82nd in Holland. Besides all of the infantry, whether they be paras or gliderborne troops, they were able to bring to play whole hospitals and arty batteries. German airborn units were, like someone said previously, disruption units. Allied airborne divisions, if well supplied and concentrated, with good support (like any other ID) could secure and hold objectives. Look again at the airborne divisions at D-Day. They were scattered and understrength but they held thier objectives. German paras, unless Hitler would have made the commitment to make them as "heavy" as allied airborne divisions, could not do this. A airborne attack on England in 1940, in ANY condition, in ANY what if scenerio, would have made Crete look like spring tea party compared to the massacre that the German paras would have gone through in southern England

2. As far as landing craft, the barges that the Germans were using were designed to be used in rivers and lakes and only if these bodies of water were as flat as a mirror. So yes, a destroyer, or heck, a PT boat with two baboons and a retarted Klingon could have swamped the fleet. The German Navy had nothing like LSTs, LCIs, LCVPs, LCMs, Amtracs, and DUKWs, to mention a few. So unless the Germans had invented transporters, in any what if situation, they would have never made it across, because in any what if scenario, the RN would still be there in strength.

3. Lastly, every time that Allied Elite met German Elite, the Germans always ended up with the short end of the stick. Study Carentan, Bastonge, and so on and so forth. Even in Cisterna, where the Rangers got mauled, they totally disrupted the attack.

:{)

That about sums it up, the Germans did not have the necessary equipment or expertise to achieve a seaborne invasion of the UK in 1940, it just wasn't going to happen and if it had it would have been a massacre plus none of the Generals had confidence in the plan and neither did the admirals. The cohesion between the services needed for a successful seaborne invasion was not there for the Germans as it was for the allies in 1944. There was not the same planning, practice (Operation Tiger for the allies - although ~700 lives were lost because of LST's sinking if I remember right.) or knowledge and willingness for the plan to succeed. The invasion was never going to succeed for the Germans in 1940 with or without air superiority or even naval superiority as the flat bottom river barges would have never been able to make it across the channel as the perfect weather conditions they needed would have been unlikely to happen for the invasion long enough for it to succeed. The weather in September in the channel is unpredictable and perfect weather conditions for more than a few hours were unlikely and the Germans needed at least 2 days of it. They may have been able to land a few troops but these troops would of been cut off and unsupplied and they would have been defeated, the plan for Sealion was botched in the first place it was so flawed it would of had almost no chance of succeeding. The British would have almost to have done nothing and the invasion would of still failed in the weather became unfavourable and swamped the barges mid-channel dumping the invading force in the so called 'Shit Canal', end of invasion attempt and no resources to attempt again. It would have been easy for the British with limited resources to stop the invasion if everything held together. There is my opinion.

Gnomey

 

[syscom3]

Didnt the RAF have some bombers hitting the barge assembly points along the coast? And I didnt think there were many harbors in the channel where the Germans could bring together the numbers of troops necessary to invade in force. And having a flat bottomed barge sail the 100 miles from Normandy to England would be crazy.