Soviet long range bombers and Japan

[Jenisch]

Hello,

The Soviets were not much interested in long range bombers prior and during WWII by several reasons. As far as Europe is concerned this seems to be truth. However, with Japan I think the story is another. The USSR didn't had a Navy capable of confront the IJN, but bomber attacks against the vulnerable Japanese cities could have produced devastating results IMHO.

I'm wondering what was the capability of the VVS for a bombing campaign against Japan between the end of the 30's and the initial years of WWII. Also, how was it's anti-shipping capability to attack Japanese vessels supplying their forces in China?

 

[norab]

Aside from some aging TB-3's, as a practical matter, I don't think any capability for a truly long range Soviet bombing force existed.

 

[Vincenzo]

Sovie had long range bomber and a branch intintled to long range bombardment aviation.
Bomber like Yer-2, Pe-8, Il-4 and probably the old TB-3 were relatively long ranged bombers

 

[Jenisch]

Actually, if the bombers were to depart from Vladivostok the distance to Tokyo would be about 800 km. Therefore, against Japan the question would be more to have a good bomber force than a long range bomber force.

 

[Rogi]

Its a pretty huge distance in the USSR from here to there. Thats why in the winter they were able to choke hold the Germans into retreating, that and they came un-prepared for winter combat.

They also weren't that well known for being able to mobalize units quickly and send them into battle imediatley. It took the USSR time to concentrate their forces.

You also have to have a system in place to rescue downed aircrew, which in the USSR at that time means, you won't be able to recover pilots quickly if you'll be able to find them at all over their vast terrain.
It was easier for the US because where ever their pilots were shot down they'd be picked up by someone and returned to duty, or captured if they survived the drop into enemy territory.

 

[herman1rg]

So, if the Russian had attacked Japan with bombing on what would effectively have been a second front, ignoring the Soviet-Japanese Neutrality Pact of 1941 (Japanese–Soviet Non-aggression Pact) would this have shortened to war in the Pacific?

Yes I realise this is all conjecture.

 

[vikingBerserker]

It certainly would have tied down some of Japan's Fighters and other resources.

 

[muscogeemike]

The USSR definitely did not want to open a "second front" but as to them being able to move forces quickly they certainly did move a large number of men and equipment from the East to defend Moscow in 1941 - efficiently and quickly.

About bombing Japan, the Soviets started bombing Berlin in Aug 1941; and most people don't know the Chinese Air Force flew missions over Japan with bombers prior to the US entering the war.

 

[norab]

Sovie had long range bomber and a branch intintled to long range bombardment aviation.
Bomber like Yer-2, Pe-8, Il-4 and probably the old TB-3 were relatively long ranged bombers

The IL-4, at that point still called the DB-3, was a medium range bomber, at that stage of the war only about 50 Yer-4's had bee produced production wouldn't resume until 1943 only 93 Pe-8's were produced between 1937 1944. I don't think that by WW II standards you can realisticly call that a long range bombing force.

 

[tyrodtom]

With 50% of their lend lease supplies coming in thru the Pacific route, Russia would have to be foolish to start a war with Japan and close down half their lend lease supplies.

 

[Vincenzo]

The IL-4, at that point still called the DB-3, was a medium range bomber, at that stage of the war only about 50 Yer-4's had bee produced production wouldn't resume until 1943 only 93 Pe-8's were produced between 1937 1944. I don't think that by WW II standards you can realisticly call that a long range bombing force.

The Il-4 or DB-3 was the most common bomber of Soviet Long Range Bombardment Aviation, if you take out it the number are very few.
For Niehorster page the LRBA had, in june '41, 33 Bomber Rgts, of this 29 with Il-4/DB-3, 2 with TB-3 and 1 with TB-37 (aka Pe-8 ). The range of Il-4 maybe not much different of that of Wellington (a bit shorter), Wellington was a time the most common bomber of BC, this, the Welly, is larger and a more capable bomber but difference in range is limited.

 

[vikingBerserker]

If you add the 93 Pe-8s to the 12 B-17s and 30 B-24s that the Soviets were able to repair from the 76 of each that had crashed in their territory (Soviet Air Power in World War 2 by Yefim Gordon), then you might have a decent size force. Pack them with incenderaries and I think you could do some serious damage. Add in the TB-3s and only do night missions.

 

[JoeB]

With 50% of their lend lease supplies coming in thru the Pacific route, Russia would have to be foolish to start a war with Japan and close down half their lend lease supplies.

That was one very good and immediate reason, and related to the more fundamental reason that it was strategically reckless for the Soviets to start wars with new countries until Germany was defeated. In the Cold War and still today it might be assumed the Soviets would take all kinds of risks to expand their own or Communist allies' areas of control. But in reality the Soviets probably put little if any strategic value on invading Japan proper, and in the event they were able to spread Communist control to a large area of Asia by entering the war v Japan a week before it was over, well after Germany was defeated. There wasn't enough further to gain to justify the cost and risk of entering the war v Japan till Germany was defeated and Japan's position was absolutely hopeless, and that's what the Soviets did.

Joe

 

[davebender]

The Soviet Union didn't produce much aluminum during the 1930s. So this bomber would probably need to be constructed from wood or steel tube covered by fabric.

The Soviet Union had trouble producing high octane aviation gasoline. So bomber engines will be running on low octane fuel.

The Soviet Union had trouble producing gyro stabilized bomb sights similiar to the American Norden or German Lotfe 7. So the bomber must attack from low altitude if it wants to hit anything.

Heavy bombers require expensive, well developed airfields. Just one more thing the Soviet Union couldn't afford.

Map: Europe, 1919 to 1939

Communist Soviet Union was mostly oriented against anti communist Germany. Most important German industrial area was located in the Ruhr. That's a long flight from airfields located in the vicinity of Minsk. Especially since Soviet bombers must loop north around Poland.

IMO that's plenty of reasons for late 1930s Soviet Union to forego production of heavy bombers.

 

[norab]

If you add the 93 Pe-8s to the 12 B-17s and 30 B-24s that the Soviets were able to repair from the 76 of each that had crashed in their territory (Soviet Air Power in World War 2 by Yefim Gordon), then you might have a decent size force. Pack them with incenderaries and I think you could do some serious damage. Add in the TB-3s and only do night missions.

but the poster specifies late thirties - early WWII, so there is no Lend-Lease or any crashed B-17's and B-24's yet. The 93 Pe-8"s were spread over 5 years of production so less than 20 a year available which probably wouldn't come close to covering losses and the TB-3's would have had to do night missions and were desperately needed on the German front anyway. also their bases would probably have been within range of Nell's and Betty's.

 

[krieghund]

The PE-8 had the necessary range and bomb-load but when one looks at the employment history not doing a campaign against Japan is a good idea. Kind of reminds me of the spotted history of Italy's P-108B.

 

[hurricane55]

Tupolev SB, Tu-2, and TB-3 medium ranged bombers from as far northwest as Neryungri, Russia could reach Sapporo, Japan, or from Vladivostok, Kagoshima, while the longer ranged Ilyushin IL-4 and Petlyakov Pe-8 could strike Central-Southern Japan from Yakutsk.

 

[glennasher]

IIRC, Russia didn't even declare war on Japan until it was all over, anyway. Not until after Okinawa, maybe even after the atomic bomb blasts.

 

[hurricane55]

IIRC, Russia didn't even declare war on Japan until it was all over, anyway. Not until after Okinawa, maybe even after the atomic bomb blasts.

Yes, they declared war after Japan surrendered to gain territory in Manchuria because the Japanese had just surrendered and they were caught off guard. The US urged the Soviets to call off the attack, but Stalin refused for 10 days of invading Manchuria, when he was forced to stop. But in this scenario, the Soviets could declare war before this, or in the 10 days in which they invaded Manchuria.

 

[norab]

the original post specifies the late 1930's early WWII not 1945