Spitfires in the Luftwaffe?

[Henk]

Yes, many people see that in the same way. It was a captured Spitfire.

Henk

 

[paaln]

There was a captured Spitfire with a DB-605...not sure of the date or what happened to it though.

That was mk.Vb EN830. A Free French with 131. sqn had to make a forced landing on Jersey in 1942. Went to Rechlin, then to a DB site near Echterdingen. Got bombed in April -44.

There was another Spitfire tested with a DB601.

http://www.unrealaircraft.com/hybrid/spitfire.php

 

[helmitsmit]

Interesting that it was better then the 109 with the same engine! It looks ugly doesn't it?

 

[Grampa]

There was a captured Spitfire with a DB-605...not sure of the date or what happened to it though.

Hey I remember that picture that i saw once in a long time. As I remember there was a captured Spitfire by the Luftwaffe. the interesteed thing about this plane is that the some germans pilots was curious about what kind of performance this plane would do whit an Daimler Benz-engine, and so they mounted a DB-engine for fun. What they then found out is that the Spitfire got a increased performance. They found the difference especially in high altitude and turning in negative g-force than compare whit the old Rolls Royce Merline-engine. Maybe is because the RRM-engine got a carburetor and the DB-engine have a more advance fuelinjection that does the difference in performance. I whounder what it would be whit the history of the spitfire if the Britt somehove got a licensed to build the DB-engine and mounted on all the spit. instead of the RRM-engine

 

[helmitsmit]

yeah but there nothing like a merlined spitfire.

 

[Wildcat]

Here I have proof that the Luftwaffe flew Spits!!!

 

[helmitsmit]

Good picture

 

[Hot Space]

Also a Hurricane MkI was fitted with a DB 601 engine and it was found to have a much greater climb rate, top speed etc.....

 

[R988]

Didn't the Russians actually use some captured 109s against the germans as well?

I actually made a scale model of a 109G10 captured by the brits in the med, mainly because I broke the german transfers and had some british ones going spare! Copied more or less the one on this page, though I haven't found the right letters yet.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~tozu/me109/foreign/109-UK.htm

 

[helmitsmit]

Any chance of see the performance figures of the DB Hurricane?

I also heard that there was a merlined 109 any info?

 

[Hot Space]

I'll look around to see what I can find m8

 

[Hot Space]

This is the only thing I can find at the moment

http://www.unrealaircraft.com/hybrid/hurricane.php

 

[helmitsmit]

That is cool thanks

 

[R988]

I was wrong it was captured Fw190s the Russians used apparently.

 

[Tiger]

Spitfire Vb serial EN830 / NX-X fell into German hands late in 1942. It crash landed on November 18th 1942 while being flown by P/O (Sous Lt.) Bernard Scheidhauer of the Free French Air Force, attached to 131 "County of Kent" Sqn. RAF. He and his No.1, P/O Henri de Bordas, had been on a "rhubarb" to Normandy during the afternoon. EN830 was hit by light flak and made a forced landing in a turnip field at Dielament Manor, Trinity, Jersey.

Sous Lt Scheidhauer was taken prisoner by the Germans and, like his aircraft, was transported to Germany. On March 24th, 1944 he and 80 other RAF officers escaped from Stalag Luft 3. He was captured along with his escape partner Sq. Ldr. Roger Bushell in Saarbrucken. The were both shot for their part in the "Great Escape" on 28th March 1944. His aircraft was captured virtually intact, and in good enough condition to be flown in November 1943, with black crosses in place of RAF roundels, to Rechlin for testing.

Enlarge image (will open in a new window)In early spring of 1941, another Spitfire had been tested here. A suggestion that it be tested with a Daimler-Benz engine to enable a more direct comparison with the Luftwaffes' Messerschmitt Bf.109 led to it being flown to the Daimler-Benz facility at Backnang, near Stuttgart, on April 24, 1941. There it was to receive a DB 601 engine. This work proved to difficult and the project was abandoned. That aircraft returned to Rechlin on September 9, 1942.

Enlarge image (will open in a new window)The acquisition of the second Spitfire, EN830, revived the idea. The Spitfire was sent to Echterdingen, south of Stuttgart, where Daimler-Benz operated a flight testing division. Flugkapitän Willy Ellenreider and his staff were responsible for testing to improve performance of other current aircraft, and a number of types served as flying test-beds. Among them were Ju.52s with a DB 605 engine in the centre position; He.111s, Hs.130s, Bf.109s and 110s, a Ju.87 and an Fi.167.

Spitfire EN830 was repainted to German standards, dark green above and pale blue below, with bright yellow tail control surfaces and large, black crosses. Radio code letters CJ+ZY were painted on each side, below and, unusually, above the wings; and the British serial transferred to the fin above the swastika.

The Spitfire reached Echterdingen minus guns and ammunition, with the gun ports closed. The radio had been replaced with ballast, but it still had its original Merlin 45 engine. Several flights were made by Daimler-Benz pilots before conversion was attempted. A decision was made to replace the intruments and the entire electrical system with standard German equipment, because the Luftwaffe used a 24 volt system, whilst the RAF used a 12 volt standard.

After the Merlin engine was removed, it was discovered that the Spitfire's front fuselage cross-section was very close to that of the standard Bf.110G's engine cowling. A new engine support was designed, and a standard DB 605A-1 engine (Wk-Nr 00701990) was mounted to the fire wall. The work was completed at the Sindelfingen Daimler-Benz factory, near Echterdingen.

A 3.0 m. diameter Bf.109G propellor was added, together with the carburettor scoop from a Bf.109G. This made the modified Spitfire's all-up weight, without armament, 6,020 lb. (2730 kg). The armament weight was an estimated additional 661 lb. (300 kg.). Its weight with armament, before the engine modification, had been 6,680 lb. (3030 kg.).

After a couple of weeks, and with a new yellow-painted nose, the Spitfire returne to Echterdingen. Ellenreider was the first to try the aircraft. He was stunned that the aircraft had much better visibility and handling on the ground than the Bf.109. It took off before he realised it and had an impressive climb rate, around 70 ft. (21 m.) per second. Much of the Spitfire's better handling could be attributed to its lower wing loading.

The Spitfire's wing area was about 54 sq. ft. (5m²) greater than that of the Bf.109. The Messerschmitt was faster at low altitude, but at 11,000 ft. (3350 m) the speeds evened out. The DB 605A engine gave better performance, according to the test group, than the Merlin, which was rated 150 hp below the German engine. It gave the Spitfire a ceiling of 41,666 ft. (12700 m.), about 3,280 ft. (1000 m.) more than a Bf.109G with the same engine and 5,166 ft. (1475 m.) more than that of a Spitfire Mk.V.

After a brief period at Rechlin confirming the performance data, the modified Spitfire returned to Echterdingen to serve officially as a test bed. It was popular with the pilots in and out of working hours. Its career ended on 14th August, 1944, when a formation of US bombers attacked Echterdingen, wrecking two Ju.52s, three Bf.109Gs, a Bf.109H V1, an FW.190 V16, an Me.410 and the Spitfire. The remains of the hybrid Spitfire were scrapped at the Klemm factory at Böblingen.

Daimler-Benz Spitfire EN830

Side view of the captured Spitfire V under evaluation with the DB 601 engine

Quarter-rear view of the Daimler-Benz powered Spitfire serial EN830

Source: http://www.unrealaircraft.com

 

[mfg]

Well I suspect it is inaccurate as no RAF Spitfire Squadrons were sent to France for the Battle of France (1940) as they where kept for the defence of Britain.

But some were there in 1939.

The Photographic Development Unit (PDU) was formed in September 1939 and was based at RAF Hendon under the command of Sqn Ldr (acting Wing Commander) Sidney Cotton.
The unit was initially equipped with modified Bristol Blenheim aircraft, although they lacked the performance to carry out the demanding sorties required by the reconnaissance role. The PDU was lent two Spitfires in November 1939 and quickly modified them for reconnaissance use, by stripping out armour and armament, and fitting extra fuel tanks. The Spitfires were pressed into immediate service and German installations were imaged from 30,000ft.
These sorties led to detachments being sent to France, under the cover name of Special Survey Flights. The Flights carried out valuable work in the period leading up to the German Blitzkreig attack on France and the Low Countries.

 

[Tiger]

I found a colour shot of a Luftwaffe Spitfire,

Also a P-38 if its of any interest,

 

[plan_D]

The Photographic Development Unit (PDU) was formed in September 1939 and was based at RAF Hendon under the command of Sqn Ldr (acting Wing Commander) Sidney Cotton.
The unit was initially equipped with modified Bristol Blenheim aircraft, although they lacked the performance to carry out the demanding sorties required by the reconnaissance role. The PDU was lent two Spitfires in November 1939 and quickly modified them for reconnaissance use, by stripping out armour and armament, and fitting extra fuel tanks. The Spitfires were pressed into immediate service and German installations were imaged from 30,000ft.
These sorties led to detachments being sent to France, under the cover name of Special Survey Flights. The Flights carried out valuable work in the period leading up to the German Blitzkreig attack on France and the Low Countries.

The first mission for the PR Spitfires was on 18 November, 1939. Taking off from a base at Séclin, France, the sortie photographed Aachen from 33,000 feet. It was performed by Spitfire PR.MK. IA serial #N3071.

 

[helmitsmit]

good stuff

 

[Yelavi931]

While on the subject, I saw an article in a modelling mag recently, which showed what the aircraft would have looked like if it had survived long enough to be transfered to Israel.

More details in the New Year.

Merry Christmas!