Wild_Bill_Kelso
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,231
- Mar 18, 2022
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
One could argue that the Soviet fighters weren't really Sten fighters. To qualify a fighter as a Sten fighter the nation in question should be able to produce better fighters, but for one reason or other chooses to build a 'Sten' fighter in order to produce large numbers of cheap fighters. So something e.g. like the Miles M.20 or such.
But the Soviet fighters? Sure, they were Sten designs compared to what the UK and US were fielding in Western Europe. But they were the best the were capable of building, considering the limitations they had in engine power (and as mentioned, suited to their requirements wrt range and altitude performance). For a Soviet Sten design, what about e.g. continuing to produce the I-16 into the early 40'ies (wikipedia says production ended only in 1942)?
We are also getting into time travel just a little bit.I think the D.520 is also a quite small aircraft. I'm not sure about the degree of complexity or expense, but it's small and that was a big help (and for the same reason as the Soviet fighters, because it had more or less the same engine)
Trying to discuss single engine fighters. Yes the Bf 110 was German fighter, however being a large twin it is not in the same class and just about everybody had their own twin engine fighters. With different degrees of success.The Bf 109 was a special case, and there was a moment where they went for light, particularly with the 109F2. But let's not forget the Bf 110 and Fw 190 were also German fighters...
The I-26 was supposed to have 1 cannon and 4 machine guns. And now we get into the "Genius of Soviet design philosophy."I agree! But this is (to me) the genius of the Soviet design philosophy. Or the philosophy applied toward the adaptation of their ~1941 era designs. They did not have the big engines, and the fighting on the Russian front was heavily, heavily focused on tactical warfare. Perhaps more than anywhere else. Both the Soviets and the Germans took advantage of this, but the Soviets arguably adapted to it much more thoroughly.
You are right that they didn't have long range and most of their fighters lacked high altitude capabilities. The few that did (like MiG 3) were not good for lower altitudes. But they didn't need that. Per the "Sten" idea, they were adapted for that frontal aviation role, fighting close to their airfields, at low altitudes. Fast enough, and agile enough to hold their own with German fighters, heavily armed enough (that hub mounted 20mm was fairly accurate and powerful, and the Soviet guns were pretty good in general as you know better than I) to gradually wrest control from the Germans and allow their tactical strike aircraft to start taking an increasing toll on the German ground forces, albeit at great cost (especially for the not so much 'Sten' IL-2s).
I say this is what made it work. They had small engines, so small planes. Especially early on they lacked metals like aluminum, so they worked out how to make effective fighters out of (mostly) wood. They had a shortage of guns, and their planes couldn't take much weight anyway, so they concentrated firepower in the nose and taught their pilots to shoot from close, and not to focus on high deflection angles etc.
Part of the Hurricane's obsolescence as a fighter was due to it's being about 5 years older than the Soviet fighters, the fact that it was designed around a fixed pitch prop and needed a large wing to take-off with, and less than ideal flap set up for landing. Nobody was designing 260 sq ft wings for 6-7,000lb fighter planes in 1939-40. I think two 20mm guns in the cowl was pretty good. The Soviets were certainly very pleased with the La 5.Everyone wanted more / bigger guns. Sometimes this ended up causing problems as weight and drag mounted. This is, in part, why the Hurricane II was obsolete and being phased out as a fighter, at the same time that the Yak-1B, La 5, and Yak-9 were just starting to hit their stride. The P-40 could fight in Russia or in New Guinea or in North Africa, but for Russia it was not as good as a Yak-9.
Sometimes and yes sometimes no.I think one of the biggest problems with military aircraft design is the tendency to overbuild, to add too much gear, too many guns etc. The Sten approach was kind of like a solvent to that bloat, and for the Russians, it became a virtue out of necessity, IMO.
For a Soviet Sten design, what about e.g. continuing to produce the I-16 into the early 40'ies (wikipedia says production ended only in 1942)?
A lot depends on tooling, very few of the fighters were actually designed for true mass production so fabrication costs can well exceed raw materials. Ki-43 and Zero were both economical in raw materials.Soviet fighters were both small and cheap. Other very important aircraft like Spitfires, Bf 109s, MC 202, etc. were also pretty small, if not necessarily as cheap.
Not in the Quantities needed which is why they went to wooden construction. Again they were planning on one 20mm (or larger) and four 7.62 mgs.The Soviets could have probably built a lot of aircraft equivalent to a Spitfire Mk II let's say, with metal skin, more guns, bigger engine etc. though that would mean in much smaller numbers than their Yak etc.
Pretty good climb is not good enough and tight turns keep you from getting shot down, it often does not mean you can shoot down the opponent.Very high roll rate and a turn time of 18 seconds makes it much more maneuverable than most other planes at that time. Rate of climb is pretty good at 2,890 fpm initial.
To be clear, the 'genius' here is in the gradual adaptation of their aircraft to the needed conditions, not "5 year plans", prison design bureaus, gulags etc.Just the Yak-9 alone went through 22 basic modifications, 15 of which made it into production. 5 new or modified powerplants, six number volume combinations of fuel tanks, seven armament variations and two special equipment's.
The US didn't have the luxury of building such a combination of variants. The planes had to be more general purpose and then modified more often in the field or by hanging stuff underneath. The Soviets had the luxury of being able to shift different planes around to different areas to suit the the tactical needs in a more timely fashion.
A lot depends on tooling, very few of the fighters were actually designed for true mass production so fabrication costs can well exceed raw materials. Ki-43 and Zero were both economical in raw materials.
Not in the Quantities needed which is why they went to wooden construction. Again they were planning on one 20mm (or larger) and four 7.62 mgs.
Often ignored in the wooden construction is gallons of glue and Phenol formaldehyde resin used in the fabrication of the wooden components.
The Soviets were not depending on old plow horses going to the glue factory. They were depending on a petro-chemical industry.
Pretty good climb is not good enough and tight turns keep you from getting shot down, it often does not mean you can shoot down the opponent.
The idea is cause damage to the enemy, not simply survive.
It occurs to me that a cheap barely middling performance fighter chosen above a sophisticated bells and whistles type just to be able to churn them out in quantity may not be cheaper if they get shot down in droves taking their aircrew with them whilst a higher tech expensive type survives longer and allows aircrew to live long enough to gain experience. You save in needing replacements which use more materials and need a bigger training system to shove more new aircrew into the the front and of the funnel instead of narrowing the exit by letting existing ones live long enough to learn to stay alive.
The dividing line may be small at times. But it is there, sometimes the line is crossed and the Bells and whistles don't work as advertised and the lower tech aircraft/weapon wins the battle of attrition. Sometimes improvements are are subtle. The US M4 tanks of of 1945 were not the M4 Shermans of the fall of 1942.It occurs to me that a cheap barely middling performance fighter chosen above a sophisticated bells and whistles type just to be able to churn them out in quantity may not be cheaper if they get shot down in droves taking their aircrew with them whilst a higher tech expensive type survives longer and allows aircrew to live long enough to gain experience. You save in needing replacements which use more materials and need a bigger training system to shove more new aircrew into the the front and of the funnel instead of narrowing the exit by letting existing ones live long enough to learn to stay alive.
In 1944 I would pick new airplanes over 1-2 year old airplanes tooIn 1944 the French Normandie Niemen squadron was offered their choice of any aircraft available in the Soviet arsenal - including P-40K, P-39, P-63, Spitfire Mk IX. They chose the Yak-3.
In 1944 I would pick new airplanes over 1-2 year old airplanes too
I do wonder what the thought process was.
They had flown nothing but Yaks for the duration of their service.
The original French Mechanics had been sent to the middle east and replaced by soviet mechanics.
How much did they know about the American/British fighters?
The French-Soviet connection was strong, the Soviets were backing the French as a counter-point to the US/British alliance. Russia was backing de Gaulle to take a bigger role in the west.
There was an element of tradition/honor in the back ground. When the French left Russia for France they took their Yak-3s with them. No spare parts so they faded away. But the return home with their weapons was considered a high honor. Would have selecting American or British aircraft in 1944 have been considered an insult to the Russians after they had supplied the French pilots with aircraft since the end of 1942?
It might take a lot of research to find out the true reasons and overlaps and it may be that the French pilots did truly think the Yak 3 was the best thing they were offered.
Soviet "quality" was all over the place. But build quality should have been relatively divorced from design choices. Assuming you could actually build the thing to begin with. However if you draft many of the able bodied workers into the army and replace them with unskilled old men, women and teenagers build quality will go down, not something the designer had much control over. They may have been able to take a bit more time or with gained experience (or both/other things) build quality went up even with design improvements. The Yak 9and LA-7 with increased use of duralumin offered advantages earlier versions did not have. The instrument fit and/radio fit increased as the war went on too.Well there could have been a different strategy more focused on "quality". Stalin liked to say that quantity had a quality all it's own... but it seems that if you fast forward to the last two years of the war and the arrival of Yak 3, La 5FN, La 7 etc., at least within the envelope where they were doing the most fighting, the Soviet fighters had been developed and adapted to the point that they were better than the (very good) German fighters they were facing.
They were using the Phenol formaldehyde resin (either Bakelite or something close to it) as a bonding agent for the veneer strips they using for the much of the "plywood" used the fuselage and wing structure.They ended up putting a thin layer of bakelite (or something a lot like it) on the outer layer of the Yak-9s as protection from moisture.
It may be a fine line. One reason the Spitfire helped win the BoB was that a new Spitfire lasted longer than a new Hurricane pilot (by a few days, New Hurricane pilots lasted about 2 weeks on average.)This one, I'd really love to discuss further. I see your point, but I actually think surviving is one of the most important things. This breaks down when speed is so much lower that the fighter can't intercept enemy aircraft, especially bombers. But surviving engagements is a really critical thing for fighters. Many fighter pilots flew multiple missions and engaged in combat several times before shooting down a single enemy aircraft - and that was with more modern planes with plenty of guns etc., and good performance.
Soviet "quality" was all over the place.
But build quality should have been relatively divorced from design choices. Assuming you could actually build the thing to begin with. However if you draft many of the able bodied workers into the army and replace them with unskilled old men, women and teenagers build quality will go down, not something the designer had much control over. They may have been able to take a bit more time or with gained experience (or both/other things) build quality went up even with design improvements. The Yak 9and LA-7 with increased use of duralumin offered advantages earlier versions did not have. The instrument fit and/radio fit increased as the war went on too.
They were using the Phenol formaldehyde resin (either Bakelite or something close to it) as a bonding agent for the veneer strips they using for the much of the "plywood" used the fuselage and wing structure.
It may be a fine line. One reason the Spitfire helped win the BoB was that a new Spitfire lasted longer than a new Hurricane pilot (by a few days, New Hurricane pilots lasted about 2 weeks on average.)
I can't find it at the moment but somewhere I have seen an account of I-16s in use in 1942 or 43 in which they took fewer losses per sortie than most (all?) other aircraft operating in their area. How much experience had to do with it I don't know. There was even talk about putting the I-16 back into production, Then they took another look and the I-16s were also doing less damage to the Germans per sortie. They didn't break down the damage/loss ratio.
I would also note that the supply of 20mm ShVAK cannon was not inexhaustible. Many of the I-16 24s had four 7.62mm guns and many of the I-16 type 29s had two 7.62s and one 12.7mm gun, wing guns taken out when rockets were installed but Soviet weapon fit seems to vary by the phase of the moon so their are no guarantees as what a few aircraft out of any batch had.
Another problem was the I-16 never (?) changed it's fuel capacity (or only once) and what gave good if not great range/endurance with 715-820hp engines wasn't so great with 1100hp engines, Yes they hung drop tanks on them but that is not quite the same thing.
A couple of points. The engineering genius of the MiG-15 was the Nene engine. Certainly not ergonomics or avionics.
The MiG-25 was a shock to the West. Then a bigger shock when the West actually got a hold of a MiG-25.
Yeah, they pulled off a few goodies and surprises. MiG-21, T-62 (it was scary in the 70s) and the SA-2 were quite good. Once we got to check their stuff out up close, however, not so much.
They had great engineers. We know this from their eulogies. They had brilliant design bureaus that handed the designs to incompetently managed, inadequately equipped factories. Their planes had to be run "flat out" to get the performance to take on, anybody. I get this from threads here mentioning engine operation and frequent replacement of their engines and Allied supplied engines.
The Americans did benefit from from British jet technology. We also made our own improvements.Avionics, you are right they were behind. But I think there was more to the overall design than just the (foreign) engine. US and UK also borrowed a lot of foreign technology, US jets in particular benefitted from British engines. The MiG 15 was a very good early jet fighter. So was the F-86. The Vampire was pretty good, though not comparable to a MiG 15. And many other early western jet fighter designs really don't come close, even with theoretically good engines.
I'm really not convinced by the "not so much" part. Was the MiG 21 truly inferior to an F-4 Phantom, an F-105 or an A-7 Corsair? (let's just not even discuss F-102, F-104 etc.). Was the T-62 seriously inferior to an M-60? The SA-2 certainly shot down plenty of Allied, US, and NATO aircraft over the yeas. One (a 1960s vintage Sa-3), long past it's freshness date, even shot down an F-117 in a famous incident that our government and Corporate media, (perhaps in an homage to Soviet era Pravda) denied at the time.
I also seem remember supposedly obsolete MiG 17s and MiG 19s shooting down a fair number of theoretically much more advanced US types.
In my view, we had several scares with Soviet technology where we temporarily got hypnotized by the yawning chasm of disaster that was implied by the idea that they had truly surpassed us in technology overall. Then we got their kit, looked it over and realized it had flaws, and was not so much a quantum leap ahead as fairly close to our own level, with some advantages and disadvantages. Then we convinced ourselves that it was crap, which is another distortion and mistake.
The issues with Soviet engines vs. Allied engines were very different and for quite specific reasons. The Soviet engines were adapted to the need, within the limits of what they started with (the quite small Hispano 12-Y). The amount of resources and materials you put into an engine has to be considered alongside the tragically very high rate at which the aircraft they go into are being lost. Worth reminding the reader that the loss rates also were appallingly high for all Allied aircraft, including British and American, in 1942 (and for the British, back to 1940).