Storage in ww2 fighters?

[Airframes]

I'd have to read the book again, but I seem to remember that, for the long flight to Malta, the cannons were removed from the Spits, and I believe a very small bag of essentials was carried in the cannon bay of one wing.

 

[Browning303]

I read First Light by Geoffrey Wellum last year and I'm sure he wrote that once the guns were removed from the wings the space was filled with much needed boxes of cigarettes for the people on Malta. I don't recall him saying anything about taking personal possessions however.

 

[MIflyer]

An article I will try to attach says that for Malta Spitfire two of the four 20MM cannon and all 4 .303 machine guns were removed to lighten the aircraft for the ferry mission and increase performance.

 

[Browning303]

Didn't later spitfires only have 2 20mm cannon anyway? Plus the 4 machine guns.

 

[pbehn]

Didn't later spitfires only have 2 20mm cannon anyway? Plus the 4 machine guns.

That is what I always understood. Four cannon was possible but the outside two could not be heated adequately. With the number of machines damaged on the ground I guess they had many cannons and MGs anyway.

 

[Hansie Bloeckmann]

I'd have to read the book again, but I seem to remember that, for the long flight to Malta, the cannons were removed from the Spits, and I believe a very small bag of essentials was carried in the cannon bay of one wing.

Wonder what the wing load factor was between a Spit w/o MG and or cannons, and the same aircraft with 2 cannon and 2 .303 Vickers MG's wing mounted. No problem with firing through a prop rotation, as with nacelle mounted ordnance, but just curious as to affect wing mounted guns had on lift, climb, roll and over-all performance in combat maneuvers??

 

[Airframes]

Not sure about wing loading or lift without checking,, but the weight saving certainly helped with overall performance and cruise economy.
BTW, the machine guns were .303 Browning, not Vickers.

 

[Greyman]

AFDU testing of 4-cannon Spit:
The Spitfire Vc, with a full war load, was flown to a height of 30,000 feet. As this height the rate of climb was below 1,000 feet per minute and the aircraft became exceedingly sloppy. Although the rate of climb at 28,000 feet was approximately 1,000 feet per minute, the manoevrability was not good and it is thought that it could be easily out-manoeuvred by the Me.109F.

EDIT:
Vc with 4 x 20mm was approx 360 lb more than a Vb
Vc with 2 x 20mm and 4 x .303 was approx 112 lb more than a Vb

 

[Shortround6]

From Spitfire performance
Spitfire Mk IX Weights and Loading
A weight chart showing weights for two 20mm cannon and 4 machine guns and 8 machine guns.
two 20mm cannon with 120rpg weigh 440lbs (294lbs for the guns and 150lbs for the ammo)
The four .303 guns weigh 112.5 lbs and 1400 rounds of ammo weigh 93lbs total 205.5lbs.
This does not include any additions or subtractions due to guns heaters or other equipment.
There is going to be a small drag penalty due to the extra 20mm gun barrels. Loss of lift is going to be very small.
Change in roll gets very difficult as the weights of the .303 guns and ammo are number of feet further out from center than the 20mm guns.
I don't believe anybody contemplated using four cannon plus 4 machine guns in the same plane.

 

[Hansie Bloeckmann]

Not sure about wing loading or lift without checking,, but the weight saving certainly helped with overall performance and cruise economy.
BTW, the machine guns were .303 Browning, not Vickers.

You are correct. The Browning (1919A-1?) in the British .303 were used. Perhaps Vickers were used in WW1 British aircraft?

 

[Greyman]

Vickers fixed guns and Lewis free guns were used from WWI to the beginning or WWII. By the time the second war started the Vickers V and Lewis III had almost entirely been replaced by the Browning and Vickers 'K' respectively.

 

[Hansie Bloeckmann]

Vickers fixed guns and Lewis free guns were used from WWI to the beginning or WWII. By the time the second war started the Vickers V and Lewis III had almost entirely been replaced by the Browning and Vickers 'K' respectively.

Thanks-- was the Lewis gun a machine gun with a long and heavy barrel jacket, as judged by the few I may have seen in military periodicals-??- and was it fed from a top-mounted round drum magazine? Apparently Browning had a contract to produce air-cooled machine guns for the RAF in .303 British cal. As the Germans took over Liege when they occupied Belgium, I wonder where they were produced from 1939 to 1945?

I believe that in America, the Browning: 1911-A-1, the various MG's and the BAR were produced by many US firearms manufactures, including the Springfield Armory, Winchester Repeating Arms, Colt, Remington, Ithaca, perhaps others as well.

 

[Shortround6]

For aircraft use they got rid of the Barrel jacket, they also designed and issued a much thicker magazine that held 97 rounds instead of the 47 rounds in the 'flat' magazine.
BSA actually built most of the Brownings used by British aircraft in WW II. Not sure if Vickers held the licence, but BSA did the actual production. I don't believe the British bought any guns from FN except perhaps a few trial models. British modified the mode of operation, to fire open bolt to prevent cook offs.

 

[Greyman]

The Air Ministry purchased manufacturing licence from Colt (.30 Calibre M.2). I don't think FN came into the mix at all.

 

[Greyman]

I don't believe anybody contemplated using four cannon plus 4 machine guns in the same plane.

I've read about that being used over Malta. I would imagine not very often.

 

[Peter Gunn]

No need to delete posts. I'm not a moderator but sometimes act like one, and I know that I probably shouldn't. But then I do lots of things that I shouldn't do....

Yeah yeah, cry me a river pal...


Wait...

 

[Crimea_River]

 

[Peter Gunn]

I've been waiting a long time to use that line with you...

 

[dedalos]

It was possible to have a passenger in the back of a 109??[/QUOT

According to Helmut Lipfert, during the evacuation of Crimea in May 1944, each Bf 109G6 of his unit (II/JG52) leaving for Romania had the head armor removed and a second pilot somehow "stored" in the impossible small space. He himself escaped that way. The 109 was completely out of trim and the landing very difficult. The same person reports that earlier in the russian campaign , they often carried bottles of wine in the radio compartment. A pilot even carried a barrel of beer using the bomb rack , with very little ground clearance
The Fw 190 quite often carried a second person. I have read that it was possible up to 3 persons. Gerhard Thyben, of 7/JG54 , even scored a victory with his mechanic in the radio compartment on 8/5/45 while escaping from Courland. On the other hand , several pilots were killed unable to abandon their damaged aircrafts because of the presence of passengers in the radio compartment

 

[Graeme]