TA-152 vs B-29

[Thumpalumpacus]

This is a what-if thread. What if the Germans held out long enough to produce the TA-152 in significant numbers, and what if that resilience led the USAAF to deploy the B-29 to Europe? How do you think these airplanes would stack up?

I think the numerical superiority of P-51s in the escort role would have made the German mission hard to achieve, but I think that as a bomber-killer, 1x30mm and 2x20mm would have taken a toll on the American bombers. Would the TA-152 be able to work in numbers against escorted formations? Or -- on an equal playing-field, without industrial statistics involved -- would it have been up to the job?

I'm interested in reading the thinking of the cognescenti here.

 

[fubar57]

Aviation - What If

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Aviation - What If

Great, thanks, mods please move?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Done...

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'll make sure to report it myself next time. Thanks for your work, Adler.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Nothing to report. It's really not a big deal.

 

[GrauGeist]

Even if the Ta152 wasn't developed, there was still the Me262, which was real trouble to the B-17s and B-24s as it was.

 

[fastmongrel]

Pretty hard to defend Germany against a single Silverplate B29.

 

[Shortround6]

as a bomber-killer, 1x30mm and 2x20mm would have taken a toll on the American bombers.

Since the B-17s and B-24s were facing 109s with 1x30mm and 2x13mms (or in some cases gunboats with 3x20mm and 2 mgs) and 190s with 4x20mm and 2mgs (and sometimes more) I am not sure what the TA-152 brings gun wise. It can certainly operate better at the higher altitudes and either give the escorts more trouble or be able to penetrant the escort screen better (but not anywhere near 100%) but in terms of damage done per firing pass it doesn't seem to bring a whole lot extra. The 350rpg for each 20mm (from Wiki) certainly sounds impressive but that is about 30 seconds of Firing time or multiple firing passes. The 30mm gun runs out of ammo in about 8-9 seconds.

 

[GrauGeist]

Pretty hard to defend Germany against a single Silverplate B29.

From what I understand, if it came to that in the ETO, it would have been a "Silverplate" equivellant Lancaster.

* Not trying to be funny here, guys - it wouldn't have been politics as much as the Germans were savvy to any new type of aircraft in the theater and a B-29 would have been of particular interest to them.

German proper was well within the Lanc's heavy-lift range. I beleive this aspect was touched on in another thread in some detail.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

 

[SaparotRob]

From what I understand, if it came to that in the ETO, it would have been a "Silverplate" equivellant Lancaster.

* Not trying to be funny here, guys - it wouldn't have been politics as much as the Germans were savvy to any new type of aircraft in the theater and a B-29 would have been of particular interest to them.

German proper was well within the Lanc's heavy-lift range. I beleive this aspect was touched on in another thread in some detail.

On Mark Felton's YouTube channel he has a video on the B-29 in the ETO.

 

[GrauGeist]

On Mark Felton's YouTube channel he has a video on the B-29 in the ETO.

It was a YB-29 (41-36963) "Hobo Queen" that briefly visited England and it was a diversionary tactic, to draw the German's attention from the Southern route that operational B-29s of the 20th AF were taking to their staging areas in China.

 

[tomo pauk]

It was a YB-29 (41-36963) "Hobo Queen" that briefly visited England and it was a diversionary tactic, to draw the German's attention from the Southern route that operational B-29s of the 20th AF were taking to their staging areas in China.

D@mn, those B-29s were good.
Now just imagine what would've happen if the Germans found out that B-29s will be coming in from China...

 

[SaparotRob]

It was a YB-29 (41-36963) "Hobo Queen" that briefly visited England and it was a diversionary tactic, to draw the German's attention from the Southern route that operational B-29s of the 20th AF were taking to their staging areas in China.

I didn't want to give away the plot.

 

[GrauGeist]

D@mn, those B-29s were good.
Now just imagine what would've happen if the Germans found out that B-29s will be coming in from China...

The Japanese soon found out!

 

[Koopernic]

This is a what-if thread. What if the Germans held out long enough to produce the TA-152 in significant numbers, and what if that resilience led the USAAF to deploy the B-29 to Europe? How do you think these airplanes would stack up?

I think the numerical superiority of P-51s in the escort role would have made the German mission hard to achieve, but I think that as a bomber-killer, 1x30mm and 2x20mm would have taken a toll on the American bombers. Would the TA-152 be able to work in numbers against escorted formations? Or -- on an equal playing-field, without industrial statistics involved -- would it have been up to the job?

I'm interested in reading the thinking of the cognescenti here.

The first B-29 combat mission was flown on 5 June 1944 (the day before D-Day in Europe), with 77 out of 98 B-29s launched from India bombing the railroad shops in Bangkok and elsewhere in Thailand. Five B-29s were lost during the mission, none to hostile fire.

The B-29 had a Maximum speed 357 mph (575 kmh) at 30,000 feet. (9144 meters). Its Maximum continuous cruising speed was 342 mph (550kmh) at 30,000 feet.(9144 meters) Economical cruising speed 220 mph at 25,000 feet. Initial Service ceiling 33,600 feet.

The fighters the Luftwaffe had the handle this threat was the some Me 109G with Nitrous oxide, and the following aircraft with enlarged superchargers. Me 109G5AS, Me 109G6ASM and Me 109G14AS. There were no Fw 190D or Ta 152. The Fw 190A could use Nitrous Oxide but this seems to have been mainly used with the Me 109.

The Me 109G14AS with an additional pair of 20mm gondola guns under the wings had 404mph speed at that altitude:

Kurfürst - Leistungen Me 109 G-14/U4 mit DB 605 AM u. ASM. (kurfurst.org)
Me 109G14AS 650kmh (404 mph) at 9000m (29,527 feet). Without the Gondola guns speed will be a little greater.

It's likely that had the B-29 threat materialised the MW50 tank would have been converted to Nitrous Oxide GM-1 system, this was a design feature. GM-1 was inconvenient as the Nitrous Oxide had to be distributed and it would boil of over time and require the aircraft to be taken of readiness and toped up.

So in June 1944 the Me 109G14 has enough performance to intercept a B-29 though its only a 13% speed margin. Its going to be hard as there will be better performing P-51B's there. October 1944 the Me 109K4 enters service and it can do about 432-440 mph at that altitude and the speed margin grows to about 22%.

The Ta 152H and the Ta 152C are Feb 1945 aircraft but both, particularly the Ta 152C were very delayed by successful allied bombing.

Below are the speed curves. Noteworthy is that the Ta 152C1 is actually faster than the Ta 152H1 at around 35,000ft with the Ta 152H1 only showing a decisive advantage in speed when the GM-1 is turned on. The Ta 152C-1 will likely have a higher bank and roll rate but the Ta 152H1 a higher climb rate and smaller turning radius.

Most Ta 152H1 were armed with a pair of MG151/20 in the wing roots and a 30mm gun firing through the propeller hub. The Ta 151C1 was additionally equipped with additional guns in the engine cowling giving 4 x 20mm and 1 x 30mm. However the Focke-Wulf Ta 152 H-0/R11 stored at the US NASM has cowling guns, in other words could be fitted if needed. It seems then that the Ta 152H was being targeted at intercepting high altitude reconnaissance aircraft with the Ta 152 more or a bomber destroyer.

Either way at 30,000ft/9200m both Ta 152 are capable of 730kmh (453 mph) and only get faster as the altitude increases.

I believe both the short barrel MK108 or long barrel MK103 could be fitted and so of course could the MG151/20 and the MG151/15mm with its much higher velocity.

So there is no doubt that the Ta 152 could intercept the B-29 and compete with the P-51 and P-47 nor that it had the firepower to hurt a B-29.

The Ta 152 would have had the EZ42 or EZ45 gyro sight which was designed for long range attacks. This would be essential as the B-29 armament was powerful and accurate.

I suspect 4 x MG151/15 15mm and 1 x MK103 30mm would be the best armament since they would slightly outrange the Browning's of the B-29.

Below Me 109G14AM and G14ASM

 

[Dimlee]

If I'm not mistaken, B-29's sortie loss rate was 1.1 % in 1945 and around 0.3% during the Korean War (recon flights excluding).
I don't think that Ta-152 can do the job better than MiG-15. Even if we assume the same quality of pilots.

 

[GrauGeist]

As mentioned before, the biggest threat to the B-29 (or even the B-32) in Europe, would be the Me262.
It's speed and firepower was not matched until the Korean war.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I really appreciate all the inputs, guys, lots to chew on here.

I hadn't really considered the comparison to the MiG-15. Assuming those numbers are correct -- and I've no reason to doubt they are -- it's a good point being laid.