TA-152 vs B-29

[Thumpalumpacus]

Good info here Defending the Superbomber: The B-29's Central Fire Control System

Thanks for getting that link out of my spoiler-tag swamp.

 

[GrauGeist]

The B-29 had four gunners:
Right, Left, Tail and Central.
The gun stations were all interconnected and even the tail gun could be operated from one of the other stations.
The bombardier also had controls for the foreward upper and lower turrets.

 

[Admiral Beez]

The B-29 had four gunners:
Right, Left, Tail and Central.
The gun stations were all interconnected and even the tail gun could be operated from one of the other stations.
The bombardier also had controls for the foreward upper and lower turrets.

It must have taken some good training to be efficient at this. You're sticking your head out your bubble and see a fighter, and assuming you're already assigned to the corresponding turret then have to get onto the aiming computer.

 

[GrauGeist]

It must have taken some good training to be efficient at this. You're sticking your head out your bubble and see a fighter, and assuming you're already assigned to the corresponding turret then have to get onto the aiming computer.

Between the five stations, whoever had the best target lock, most likely had the green light from the FCO.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

The point I was making is that an organized defense is usually stronger than one scattered amongst six different gunners -- and no hardware support for gun-laying, to boot.

 

[GrauGeist]

The gun computer was fairly advanced for it's time.
The computer allowed for individual command of a turret, or a single gunner to command up to three turrets.
The FCO oversaw the defenses and administered where needed.

Also, the navigator updated data into the computer so it could maintain accurate calculations - the system was a herald of a new age.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Great B-29 vid 27:25 for the guns, but whole vid is informative. I didn't realize that one gunner can fire all the remote turrets at once.

 

[Peter Gunn]

My uncle was in the 315th on Guam doing Empire Strikes, although they were Stickley night operations, he had many chats with the Saipan based units that had done the heavy lifting daylight missions. I can only relate anecdotal evidence but...

The analog computer that ran the guns was pretty efficient at whacking Japanese interceptors, not perfect but a damn sight better then a B-17 or B-24. The concentrated firepower was too much for many a Japanese fighter to handle, not to mention the daylight boys got P-51 escorts as well. But the rule was pretty much if a Japanese fighter plane was spotted, he was in deep poop, even head on attacks could see an interceptor blown to pieces by the concentrated, computer directed fire control of several B-29s.

To answer (sort of) Admirals question of how good was the B-29 at defending itself, the anecdotal answer is "Damn Good".

As to the thread regarding the Ta 152, I imagine it might have a slightly better advantage over its Japanese counterparts but the firepower it would be facing would be formidable, same for an Me 262.

drgondog can speak better to what I'm about to say, but I would imagine that by the time the B-29 might deploy to ETO, the Ta 152 would have to square off against the P-51H and certainly the P-47N, which, at the altitudes we are talking about (above 30,000ft) I wouldn't give the German interceptor too much of an advantage against that pair, in fact I think the performance edge may be held by the American escorts. Either that or it would be even money.

As an aside, the 315th's Superforts were "Strippers", they only had the radar directed tail guns, all other armament was removed, hence more fuel and more bombs.

 

[SaparotRob]

That was a great read. It makes the expen$e of the B-29 more understandable.

 

[SaparotRob]

Was there any thought of mounting jet engines on the B-29 as either an assist or primary power plants?

 

[GrauGeist]

Was there any thought of mounting jet engines on the B-29 as either an assist or primary power plants?

They did use either RATO or JATO (can't remember which) on the B-29 on some occasions postwar.
The B-50 (upgraded B-29) didn't need it, as far as I recall.

 

[special ed]

KB-29 and KB-50 tankers used podded Jets same as the B-36.

 

[special ed]

Pics of KB-50, p.3, post 51, AvPix unlimited thread, if interested

 

[rinkol]

If I'm not mistaken, B-29's sortie loss rate was 1.1 % in 1945 and around 0.3% during the Korean War (recon flights excluding).
I don't think that Ta-152 can do the job better than MiG-15. Even if we assume the same quality of pilots.

One should be careful about interpreting loss figures. The B29's operating against Japan switched to night operations. This took advantage of the weakness of Japanese night defenses and reduced the strain on the R-3350 engines. In the Korean War, initial losses to the Mig-15 resulted in a reduction in the scope of B-29 operations.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Best German interceptor to get past the B-29's formidable armament? Bachem Ba 349. The Superfortress won't see it coming.

 

[wuzak]

Over Germany this will be different, and the Ta 152 will have the altitude performance and speed to catch the B-29. So we need a pressurized, high altitude escort fighter. Is that the P-51? Maybe the XP-47E but does it have the legs? P-38L may be the best choice.

P-51B/C/D/K weren't pressurised.

P-38L wasn't pressurised.

But do the escorts need pressurisation?

Escorts regularly flew at 30,000ft in the war without pressurisation. If the B-29s were flying at 30,000ft, how much higher do the escorts need to be?

And while the Ta 152H can fly at extreme altitudes, will it be? Perhaps the Ta 152C would be more of a threat, considering that its performance is optimised around the altitudes at which their enemy would be flying.

The Me 262 with its performance margin over Allied piston fighters and 4 x 30mm cannon, plus rockets, would be a greater threat.


I'm not sure why you you would think that the P-38L was the answer.

The P-47M and N would have more performance at high altitudes, as would the P-51H a little later.

The P-38L also had a relatively low critical Mach number, which very much restricted its performance at high altitudes.


By the time the Ta 152 starts operating the Allies have bases in France, so range becomes less of an issue for the escorts.

You may even be able to use Spitfire XIVs, which was judged to be better than the Ta 152H below 30,000ft, equal between 30,000ft and 35,000ft. Above 35,000ft the Ta 152H was better.

Not sure how the Spitfire XIV compared to the Ta 152C.

 

[GrauGeist]

Best German interceptor to get past the B-29's formidable armament? Bachem Ba 349. The Superfortress won't see it coming.

It may have been good for point defense, but it was literally a manned rocket with no glide characteristics. Once it reached it's target, the R4Ms were deployed and it fell back to earth.

The Me163B would have at least allowed the pilot the ability to adjust his attack profile and make multiple passes.

 

[GrauGeist]

And while the Ta 152H can fly at extreme altitudes, will it be? Perhaps the Ta 152C would be more of a threat, considering that its performance is optimised around the altitudes at which their enemy would be flying.

The Ta152C had the standard wing, which would have made it more capable at low to mid altitudes.
The Ta152H, which had the larger wings for mid to high altitudes actually performed well at low altitudes as well - so it would have been the preferred variant for production in light of limited resources.

 

[wuzak]

The Ta152C had the standard wing, which would have made it more capable at low to mid altitudes.
The Ta152H, which had the larger wings for mid to high altitudes actually performed well at low altitudes as well - so it would have been the preferred variant for production in light of limited resources.

Ok, so they may go for the Ta 152H with the high altitude capability, but would it actually be operating there against B-29s?

To me that capability is most likely to be used against high altitude PR aircraft, such as the PR.XIX, which could cruise at ~400mph @ 40,000ft.

 

[GrauGeist]

If the Luftwaffe was able to field more Ta152s, I would suspect that they would be providing top cover for the Me262s as they intercepted the bombers, much like the Fw190Ds protected the Me262s taking off and landing.
Since the RLM dismissed the He280 early on, there was no real fighter the Germans possessed to ward off the Allied escorts as the Me262 attacked the bomber stream.
And unlike the Me262, the Ta152 would not be helpless when it was entering the pattern.