Ta152-H1 uber-fighter?

evangilder said:

I agree Lanc, the Phantom is probably considerably heavier too. The fpm measurment is okay, but it doesn't tell how long that climb rate can be maintained. Weight and drag are going to effect it.

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The phantom, from a standing start, could reach:

9000m (29528 feet) in 61.62 seconds
12000m (39370 feet) in 77.15 seconds
15000m (49213 feet) in 114.54 seconds
20000m (65617 feet) in 177.5 seconds

It had a thrust to weight ratio of greater than 1, so it could climb "strait up", though I imagine the best climb rate was at something a little less than 90 degrees (and this is probably true of the EE Lighting too).

F-15 -
30,000m (98,425ft) in 207.8 seconds

EE Lightning -
12192m (40000 feet) in 150 seconds

This was the only time to alt figure I could find for the EE Lightning. Since I only found it in one place, perhaps you can provide some better info?

BTW: The initial rate of climb of the Lightning is indeed considerably better than that of the Phantom, about the same as the F-16, and a little worse than the F-15.

Relating to the quick takeoff...

The main incursion Russian bomber was the Tupolev (Myasishchev 'Bear') which had a range of some 6000 miles, once RADAR had picked up one of these monsters the klaxon alert was sounded from RAF Bawdsey, RAF Neatishead, Fylingdales and other RADAR stations. The front and rear hangar doors had 'panic red buttons' situated in the corridor from the accomodation block to the hangar, the first through the corridor hit the buttons. The pilots were strapped in, if it was an immediate alert the two Rolls Royce Avon engines would be started through the AVPIN (Iso-propyl nitrate) starters and the one or both aircraft would be scrambled onto the runway and airborne in just a few short minutes. These aircraft had priority over all other aircraft.
http://splashdown2.tripod.com/handleypagehastings/id7.html

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To me, a "few" means 3 or more.

=S=

Lunatic

Are those figures for clean aircraft? If so, the value is little more than academic. It may make for nice records, but more useful is how quickly they can reach altitude carrying a useful weapons load.

Lightning Guy said:

Are those figures for clean aircraft? If so, the value is little more than academic. It may make for nice records, but more useful is how quickly they can reach altitude carrying a useful weapons load.

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I suppose... but... the EE Lightning couldn't carry a "useful weapons load"



Lunatic

Excuse me, RG. I'll tell you the truth behind the QRF (Quick Reaction Flight) since my dad served in those hangers, with the 11 Sqn. Lightning at RAF Binbrook.
I'm glad you've finally realised how quickly the AVPIN can start an engine (A short note on AVPIN, when it's alight you can't put it out. It creates it's own oxygen).

The two Lightnings in the ORF hangar were very rarely scrambled together, it was normally only one scrambled while the other pilot waited in the second in case another 'Bear' was picked up.
The pilot often knew about the upcoming scramble call before it actually happened because he could listen on land-line radio. Listening to air traffic challenging the UA (Unidentified Aircraft). The pilot often had his helmet resting on the canopy so he wouldn't have to rush for it, it'd be there with his plane.

When the scramble call came, all the technicians and pilots would run out. The pilot would get in, followed by a technician who would strap him in, pull out his ejection pin, show the pilot, then close the canopy and pull away the ladders. While this was going on, another tech had banged the doors open. At the same time another tech had plugged in power sets and as soon as the confirmation (through land-line, couldn't be intercepted) came from air traffic the pilot would go - if both were ordered, both would go. AVPIN would kick in, the engines (didn't require heating, no avionics needed to start) would start...he'd taxi on to the piano keys (end of the runway) and bang on re-heat and be slamming down the runway and up.

From scramble call to that Lightning being up, yes a few minutes. But it takes time to get all men out and all jobs done. From brakes off to taking off, a few seconds.

Now, no matter what your site tells you. I could tell you more, my dad was there, he served with these things and sometimes scramble calls came three times a night. And he worked on the things, he made sure they flew. I don't care what 'few' means to you. My dad says from scramble call to the Lightning up, 2 minutes was easy. It's your problem if you don't believe it.
Oh and I forgot, the pilot was told where to go by ground control with their own RADAR. The pilot could turn all his stuff on while in flight.

And 2 Firestreaks is good enough ammo load, plus 2 30mm Aden cannons. If it was a true attack, the whole station would be on alert..and RAF Binbrook had 2 Lightning (11 Sqn and 5 Sqn) both with 14 Lightnings, with 2 Firestreaks each getting prepped. On top of the QRF, there were two loaded up in a hanger to be sent straight out after the QRF ones.

It's all much better than anything America had that couldn't even reach 57,000 feet until the Phantom. And I'll say again, the Lightning could scramble quicker than the Phantom.

very good info, thanks............

I forgot to mention the power sets didn't need to be unplugged by a tech, once he'd plugged them in he'd run to the front and wave the Lightning out of the hangar. He'd tell the pilot to start both engines at once (normally you do it one at a time) and wave him straight on to the runway. The power set was anchored down, so the Lightning pulling away would pull them out.

pretty clever.............

Not really difficult to think of but it made the operation quicker, and there was one less tech needed to scramble a Lightning. Plus while the Lightning was plugged in he was talking over land-radio so it couldn't be intercepted.

did they keep radio silence on the way up??

No, they couldn't. The Lightnings RADAR wouldn't be on until he was some way up, so ground control had to direct him. Once he was facing the target and in range he could see for himself but until then, it was the ground controllers job to get him there. That's one of the reasons they were so quick, they didn't need to power everything up on the aircraft.

Modern day aircraft need to sit for 3 - 5 minutes waiting for all the avionics to power up. The Lightning could get in, bang on the engines and be gone within 2 minutes of the scramble call.



I just like this picture. I don't know the history behind the picture but I think they must have been on their way to Cyprus or Malta and re-fueling over south Germany

wasn't it dangerous to keep the fuel in the plane for a long time though??

The normal fuel was fine, the AVPIN was dangerous but on a scramble that'd mostly get used up starting the engines. A fuelled up aircraft GENERALLY, no matter the kind, is dangerous. I'm just saying the Lightning wasn't anymore dangerous.

I would like to correct a common mistake with the Lightning. It's engines did not provide a greater thrust than it's weight. The thrust of both RR Avons combined was 31,160 lbs. The EMPTY (No fuel) weight of the Lightning was 28,000 lbs. The weight loaded was 50,000 lbs. See, fuel weighs a lot!

The initial rate of climb on the Lightning was 50,000 ft per minute.

The same thing applies to Phantom, RG, when refering to thrust:weight ratio. It was NOT 1:1. The EMPTY weight of the Phantom was 31,853 lbs. The combined thrust of both J79-GE-17s was 35,800 lbs. The normal take-off weight was 53, 814 lbs while maximum was 61, 795 lbs.

Make sure when you look at thrust:weight check the weight is loaded because when empty it has no fuel, so it's not going to go anywhere! The F-15 was the FIRST aircraft to have over 1:1 thrust to weight. Meaning it could climb vertical until it's ceiling without losing speed.

I have to disagree that the phantom had a 1:1 thrust to weight. Maybe for an airplane with no combat load, but the engines had 17,900lbs. thrust each, meaning about 35,800 lbs total. The empty weight of a phantom with no fuel or ammo was 29,535 lbs. The standard combat load added another about 38,000 lbs (Fuel and armaments) for a max takeoff of about 60,000 lbs. This is an F4E.

I have seen quite a number of phantoms over the years and I never watched one take off vertically and sustain it. It could go straight up for a few thousand feet, but not much more.

I have also watched a number of lightnings take off and must say that the results were impressive. For their time, they were quite impressive. Even in the mid-eightes, when I saw them at air shows in England, they raised eyebrows.

I was just wondering, evan, did you read my last post?

Sorry, I guess I did AFTER you posted. Better to be redundant than to not say it, I reckon.

plan_D said:

I would like to correct a common mistake with the Lightning. It's engines did not provide a greater thrust than it's weight. The thrust of both RR Avons combined was 31,160 lbs. The EMPTY (No fuel) weight of the Lightning was 28,000 lbs. The weight loaded was 50,000 lbs. See, fuel weighs a lot!

The initial rate of climb on the Lightning was 50,000 ft per minute.

The same thing applies to Phantom, RG, when refering to thrust:weight ratio. It was NOT 1:1. The EMPTY weight of the Phantom was 31,853 lbs. The combined thrust of both J79-GE-17s was 35,800 lbs. The normal take-off weight was 53, 814 lbs while maximum was 61, 795 lbs.

Make sure when you look at thrust:weight check the weight is loaded because when empty it has no fuel, so it's not going to go anywhere! The F-15 was the FIRST aircraft to have over 1:1 thrust to weight. Meaning it could climb vertical until it's ceiling without losing speed.

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In service, most late F-4As incorporating all of these changes were re-engined with J79-GE-8 engines rated at 10,900 lb.s.t. dry and 17,000 lb.s.t. with afterburning. This increased thrust more than made up for the increased drag produced by the higher canopy. The Phantom had a thrust/weight ratio that had never before been achieved by any fighter, and a ratio exceeding unity was often achievable in practice, enabling the aircraft to continue to accelerate while traveling straight up.
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f4_2.html

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As you can see, the early model Phantoms had 17000 lbs s.t. However, the later models (by the time of the E, 1966) had 17900 lbs s.t., as you quoted. Empty weight on the F4-E was 29535 lbs, not the 31853 lbs you quote. Typical combat takeoff weight was 38019, not the 53814 lbs you quote.

While it is true the "combat weight" of the Phantom is rated about 2000 lbs greater than it's thrust, this does not change the fact that the plane could be configured for intercept (ie: armed) and have a better than 1:1 thrust/weight ratio. Internal fuel was 1225 US Gallons in the fuselage tanks and 630 gallons in the wing tanks, about 13000 lbs of fuel max capacity. For intercept 5000 lbs of fuel would be pleanty, so a 1:1 thrust to ratio on an intercept configured Phantom was doable, giving a range of about 250 miles (rt).

Initial climb rate on the F4-E Phantom was 61,400.

Also, Phantoms were often set up for quick takeoff on Carriers. Exactly what the proceedure was I'm unsure, but they were set on the catapults and could be launched as fast as the pilot could get to them. I suspect these were simply kept warm and ready to go. From cold to go it took a Phantom approximately 9 minutes to get rolling.

=S=

Lunatic

As an honorary mention...


The Mig-25.


Initial Climb Rate 40,950 ft (12,480 m) / min

After which the engines would have to be replaced and the MiG would be off operations for a while. In term of performance, the MiG-25 is impressive. In terms of practicality, the MiG-31 is a major improvement.

I wouldn't feel comfortable taking of on an intercept with only 5,000lbs of fuel. On an intercept, afterburner would be used frequently causing fuel consumption to skyrocket.

Incidentily, I don't believe the Ta-152 wasn't the be-all of piston engined fighters.

You seem to be forgetting that the same involves the so-beloved F-15...


It can only climb at its maximum and can only reach m2.5 when VMAX is on, a special afterburner switch on the side of the cockpit which requires the engines to be overhauled after the flight and can only be used for a short period of time.

Generally speaking, a loaded (not fully, just an average loadout of fuel/tanks and missles - maybe four AAMRAMS and two Sidewinders) is limited to, "only," m1.78.