Ta152-H1 uber-fighter?

[Anonymous]

This is a reply to Erich comment "Nothing could touch the Ta 152H-1..." and various other comments concering the TA-152.

The Ta-152 was made to intercept the B-29 at altitudes above 30,000 feet. German intelligence anticipated the B-29 would be used against Germany starting in late 1944. It was not made to dogfight the P-51, though it was certainly capable of doing so, at least at high altitudes.

However, I'd point out that it was not the "super fighter" many have made it out to be. Let's compare it to the P-51...

Focke-Wulf Ta 152-H1 Specifications:
Crew: One
Powerplant: Junkers Jumo 213E-1 12-cylinder, liquid-cooled engine rated at 1,750hp at take-off ( 2,050hp with MW 50 ) and 1,320hp at 32,800ft. (1,740hp with GM 1)
Armament: 1 x 30mm Mk108 cannon mounted in the engine with 90 rounds, 2 x 20mm MG151/20 cannon mounted in the wign roots with 175 rpg.
Gunsight: Revi 16b reflector sight
Max. Speed: 332 mph @ sea level (350 mph with MW 50), 465 mph @ 29,530 feet (with MW 50), 472mph @ 41,010 feet (with GM 1)
Cruising Speed: 311 mph cruising speed at 22,965ft.
Range: 755 miles to 1,250 miles depending on speed and external tankage
Fuel Capacity - internal 260.6 gallons external: 158.5 gallons
Climb - initial 3445 fpm with MW 50 injection Time to Altitude: ?
Ceiling: 48,550ft. with GM 1 injection
Dimensions - wingspan: 47 feet 4.5 inches length: 35 feet 1.66 inches height: 11 feet 0.25 inches wing area: 250.8 square feet
Weights: 8,642 lbs empty, 10,472 lbs operational, 11,502 lbs max.
Operational Wingloading: 41.75 lbs/square foot
Number deployed: exact figure unknown but 20 pre-production H0's and 34 production H1's seem to be a generous estimate.

Crew: One
Powerplant: Packard Merlin V-1650-7 V-12 liquid-cooled engine producing 1695 hp for takeoff, 1790 hp at critical altitude (WEP).
Armament: 2 x .50 M2 BMG's with 400 rpg and 4 x .50 BMG's with 270 rpg mounted in the wings (alternatively 4 x .50 M2 BMG's with 400 rpg)
Gunsight: K-14 lead computing gunsight.
Max. Speed: USAAF published - 395 mph at 5000 feet, 416 mph at 10,000 feet, 424 mph at 20,000 feet, 443 mph at 25,000 feet, 438 mph at 30,000 feet. NAA test: 449 mph at 26,600 feet.
Cruising Speed: 275-395 mph (1)
Range: 1180 miles at 275 mph, 950 miles at 395 mph (@ 20000 feet), 2440 miles with drop tanks (2 x 110 gallon) at 249 mph.(1)
Fuel Capacity - internal: 269 gallons external: 2 x 110 gallons
Climb - initial: 3475 fpm Time to Altitude: 10,000 feet in 3.3 mins, 20,000 feet in 7.2 mins.
Cieling: 41,900 feet
Dimensions - wingspan: 37 feet 0.25 inches length 32 feet 3 inches height: 8 feet 8 inches wing area: 233 square feet
Weights: 7125 lbs empty, 10100 lbs operational, 12100 lbs max.
Operational Wingloading: 43.2 lbs/square foot
Number Deployed: about 10,000 including P-51K (which was identical except for alternate prop manufacturer)

To me this looks like a pretty even matchup, with the P-51D having the edge below about 20000 feet and the Ta152 having the edge above about 25000 feet.

But I'm not convinced the Ta was really that good a handling plane for normal dogfighting. It has only slightly better wingloading than the P-51, but in high speed combat lower wing loading is not really an advantage. The Ta's roll performance was nothing like that of the earlier FW190's, and the very long wings would have created excessive drag at high speeds (not so critical at higher altitudes).

The thing that has to be remembered about the Ta152 is that it was designed to fight at very high altitudes. In particular, it was designed to stall fight. The Ta152 wing is not only uniquie in its huge span, but also in that it is twisted, the wing near the root has more angle of attack than the near the wing tip. The reason for doing this was so when stalling out in a climb, as the plane fell through the stall, part of the airfoil would still be effective (air flowing over the ailerons), allowing roll control through more of the stall manuver. This would allow a Ta152 pilot to climb hard and then flip over and effectively attack an enemy that was chasing it, presumably as it was also nearing stall and had little control. Combine with the ability to engage SEP to ensure it would not be caught in such a climb, this sorta makes sense. However this assumes the enemy is unaware of the capabilities of the Ta, which would only be true for a short while had this plane been used in significant numbers. At lower altitudes, where the air is thicker, I have to wonder about this design, as it means at high speeds the wing would be fighting with itself which would have a tendancy to twist it even further and make the plane buffet as no single angle of attack can be set to minimize turbulence over the wing.

Another issue with the Ta152 is its performance figures are somewhat questionable. I don't believe actual high altitude performance of this plane was ever "tested", instead, it was estimated based upon low-medium altitude tests. If anyone has any information to the contrary, I'd love to see it!

Much of the Ta152 performance is based upon SEP (Special Emergency) power useage, which is NO2 injection, or GM1 as the German's called it. SEP power could not be flipped on and off at a whim. In order to engage SEP power the engine had to be at the right RPM and under a heavy load with the prop pitch set correctly (i.e. a steep climb with the prop set to a steep pitch). Under these conditions, SEP power could be used to prevent the engine from bogging (rpm's from falling) to sustain a climb. If engaged in level flight to try to gain acceleration, SEP would force a quick and nearly uncontrollable increase in RPM and probably blow the engine. It was probably also useable in level at very high altitudes where the engine power was already far below normal. But the point is this was not readily availble power for combat, dip the nose down with SEP engaged and the engine would be toast. I also don't think GM1 and MW50 boost could be used together as the combination would create nitric acid as a bi-product and this would quickly destroy the engine.

Also, the P-51 also had an additional source of power, cooling system generated thrust which increased with speed. This thrust amounted to about 300 HP equivalent at 25,000 feet at 400 mph, but comming out of a dive at 500 mph TAS at 20,000 feet it was worth a good 700 HP which could be turned into a very fast zoom climb. This is one of the reasons why the P-51 zoom climb is always noted as "far superior" in every comparative test. Cooling system thrust also helps the P-51 achieve its superior range.

Finally, perhaps the more appropriate Mustang to compare the Ta152H1 to is the P-51H, not the P-51D. About the same number of P-51H's were available at about the same time as the Ta152, 20 having been delivered in early Feb. 1945 and 355 by VE day in May. The P-51H had a top speed of 487 mph at ~25,000 feet, climbs at 3500 fpm w/o WEP (over 4000 fpm with WEP), and had a more effective cooling system generated thrust system. Also, it does not compare that favorably to the F4U-4 either, except above 30,000 feet. And then of course there is the F8F and the late model Spitfires...

My point is the Ta152 was a specialized aircraft, designed to dogfight at very high altitudes in a very specific way, and to attack high flying heavy bombers. It had some success in its very limited engagements near the end of WWII, but that does not tell us much because we don't really know much about the failures, and because Allied pilots had no experiance with this plane and thus were prone to make mistakes when they ecountered and fought it.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[lesofprimus]

The only way to get an accurate portrayal of this fine aircraft is to look at the opinions of the men who flew them, cause their combat role was so very limited.....

Despite the fact that the Ta 152 H was intended to combat high-altitude Allied bombers, very few missions of this type were ultimately ever flown.... Despite this no Ta 152s were lost to enemy fire....

III Gruppe pilots of note who transferred to the Stab JG 301 were Fw. Willi Reschke, Uffz. Christoph Blum, Ritterkreuzträger Ofw. Heinz Gossow and Staffelkapitän Oblt. Hermann Stahl all of 9. Staffel, along with Sepp Sattler and Josef Keil of 10. Staffel......

Keil was to achieve 'acedom' on the type.... Former Sturmjäger Walter Loos, who had previously flown alongside Walther Dahl in the Stab JG 300 during the summer of 1944 and had achieved some thirty victories also transferred in.... In the last weeks of the war both he and Reschke were awarded the Ritterkreuz..... Given the number of Knights Cross holders flying Ta 152s at the end of the war some writers have considered the Geschwaderstab of JG 301 to be something of a crack unit..

Willi Reschke relates in 'JG 301/302 Wilde Sau' ;

"On 23 January 1945 on orders from the OKL (Oberkommando der Luftwaffe) Jagdgruppe III./JG 301 was temporarily taken off operations and designated an Einsatzerprobungsverband, a combat test unit, re-equipping with the legendary Ta 152 – something we'd long given up hoping for…"

In the early hours of 27 January the Gruppe's pilots were taken by truck to the Neuhausen aircraft plant near Cottbus with orders to ferry the new Höhenjäger to Alteno......


" Arriving at the airfield at Neuhausen we were confronted with our first sight of the Ta 152 H-1, which with its enormous wingspan and lengthened engine cowl hardly looked like a fighter aircraft at all........ With feelings of unease we walked around the machines drawn up in three rows (twelve aircraft in total). Technicians were on hand to answer our queries..... After a talk on the technical aspects of the machines that lasted barely 30 minutes, we took the aircraft on charge.. I got airborne at 11:08.."

As Reschke opened up the throttle the enormous power developed by the Jumo 213 E forced the pilot back into the seat and after a roll of just a few hundred meters and at 210 kph the big fighter lifted off effortlessly..... Flap and gear retraction was smooth and with the 60cm wide blades paddling through the air the climb to 10,000 meters took just 12 minutes.... At this height the aircraft behaved impeccably..... That same afternoon the twelve aircraft were lined up on the field at Alteno..... The well known, indeed the only known photo of operational Ta 152s published was in all likelihood taken that same day.....

A report sent by Gruppenkommandeur Guth to the OKL relating to this test phase stated that the pilots of III./JG 301 were unanimous in their praise of the new fighter..... Pilots particularly enthused over the fighter's manoeuvrability and at heights of 6,000 to 8,000 considered it hugely superior.......

An unnamed pilot flying his second sortie in an H-0 completely outmanoeuvred a Fw 190 A-8 flown by an experienced pilot in mock combat at all heights....

Although III./JG 301 had been slated to fully re-equip with the new Ta 152 before resuming operations, there were never more than sixteen to twenty aircraft instead of the planned 35 available..... The dispersed production of the type suffered all sorts of bottlenecks against a background of impending collapse..... The Marienburg assembly plant in East Prussia was soon overrun by the Soviet's rapid advance, as was ultimately the Cottbus facility itself...... The Soviet advance also soon forced a move from Alteno, which had found itself a front line airfield harbouring a variety of Schlacht and Jabo-Gruppen...... III./JG 301 moved to Sachau, west of Gardelegen, with the Geschwaderstab and the Doras of II./JG 301 moving to Stendal...... These factors resulted in a decision to concentrate the new machines into an enlarged Geschwaderstab as and when they became available and to transfer experienced pilots from III. Gruppe to the Stab....... This took effect from 13 March 1945.....

The first combat sortie flown by a mixed force of Ta 152 Hs and Fw 190 As of III./JG 301 had taken place on 2 March 1945...... That day a powerful 8th Air Force formation of 1,232 bombers screened by 723 fighters was dispatched to Böhlen, Magdeburg and Ruhland....... Airborne from Sachau behind Verbandsführer (formation leader) Oberleutnant Stahl, some twelve Ta 152s climbed away southwards and prepared to do battle with the Mustang escort screening the bombers heading for the Bohlen chemical plant near Leuna.... The sortie ended in disaster when the Ta 152s were engaged......

Willi Reschke has described the events of that day in his history of Jagdgeschwader 301;

"We reached grid square 'Heinrich-Caesar' now flying at an altitude of more than 8,000 meters and closed to formate with a Gruppe of Bf 109s that were wearing yellow and red fuselage bands....... We could barely believe our eyes when, moments later, the first tracers split the air around us as Uffz. 'Bubi' Blum's Ta 152 came under attack...... The 109s had opened up on us!!! We could hardly return fire on Kameraden from our own Jagdgeschwader and the sortie was a complete debacle".....

Such had been the secrecy surrounding the introduction of the new fighter and the unfamiliarity of its slender winged silhouette that even JG 301 pilots had mistaken it for enemy aircraft...... Although no losses were incurred and the agility and superior performance of the Ta 152 H allowed them to evade all of the "attackers", the chance to join combat with the P-51s was lost..... Meanwhile the 109s of the newly formed IV./JG 301, largely comprising hastily retrained former He 177 pilots from III./KG 'Hindenburg' suffered heavily at the hands of the Mustangs west of Magdeburg......

In the event the 2 March 1945 sortie described previously was one of the last to see large numbers of German fighters in the air in defence of the Reich....... Thereafter most sorties flown were Jabo or Tiefangriffe on both Eastern and Western Fronts....... Although some writers have stated that Ta 152s flew "top-cover" for bases from which Messerschmitt Me 262 jet fighters operated, this seems unlikely..... The Ta 152s of the Stabsschwarm did fly airfield protection duties for the Doras of II./JG 301 given that the various Gruppen of JG 301 were housed on different fields..

Incidentally the only recorded encounter with P-51s is the incident noted by Kurt Tank himself, who had a narrow escape while flying one of his Ta 152 Hs towards the end of 1944.... He was flying from Langenhagen near Hannover to attend a meeting at the Focke-Wulf plant in Cottbus...... His plane carried armament, but no ammunition. Shortly after takeoff, he was jumped by four Mustangs..... Tank activated his MW 50 boost, opened the throttle wide, and so the story goes, quickly left the Mustangs far behind in a cloud of blue smoke.....

The final victims falling to the guns of the Ta 152 were Russian Yak-9s during the final days of battle around Berlin on April 30, 1945...... Approximately 150 Ta 152 H-1 fighters were manufactured between January 1, 1945 and the arrival of Soviet forces at the Cottbus assembly plant...... No Jagdgruppen ever completely converted to the type..... Most Ta 152 Hs, however, were destroyed on the ground by Allied air attacks while awaiting delivery...... A few Ta 152 Hs were allocated to the Mistel program...... There is little firm information on numbers produced. Harmann has listed Werknummern from 150-001 to 150-040 and 150-167 to 150-169 for a total of 43 aircraft...... There is no information on WNr. -041 to -166...... Some claim all 169 machines were constructed.

With its scintillating performance, numbers of high performance Allied fighters fell to its guns in the final weeks of the war...... Despite the fact that the Ta 152 H was intended to combat high-altitude Allied bombers, very few missions of this type were ultimately ever flown..... Despite this no Ta 152s were lost to enemy fire....

 

[Erich]

B-29's ? where is this from unless I am totally clueless.

I see someone has been snooping on our web-site agin

There are over 15 pilot accounts of the Ta's high altitidude performance. every pilot had previously flown the Bf 109G-6 or the Fw 190A-8 and their feelings were that the Ta was the ultimate piston driven a/c.

of course we can typically talk what-ifs as the US P-51 never came upon the Ta except when Kurt Tank was test riding a C variant and ripped away from 4 P-51's on his tail............

The Ta was in combat with mid altitude Soviet types and P-47's as well as Tempests. Walter Loos and Will Reschke both in the Geschwader stab said that nothing could touch the a/c in their personal combats, but this was also the case of "Jupp" Keil and Blum too.

Thanks for starting the thread Lun.............

at this time only Willi Reschkes book and the book by Kagero chats of the Ta's ops and the Monogram booklet covers more of the tech aspects. Schiffers TA 152 includes accts from both sources. Jerry Crandall has probably interviewd more of the TA pilots personally having donethis the last 15 years he will finish up his findings over the enxt 5 years and then write up his book. I am also going to be helping him as having a cousin in JG 301 I have been open to some interesting findings........

It was also mentioned to me that Will Reschke was to rewrite his JG 301/302 book 2 years ago but not sure if he is going to do so due to health reasons........I hope he does though, as there still is so little on the Tank H

 

[Anonymous]

Again, my point stands that the Ta was simply unproven in battle. It's performance against a late model 190A is pretty meaningless, as that plane was not a dogfighter to start with.

As for Tank's famous story... kind of self serving don't you think? Declaring his creation successful w/o even firing a shot or being shot at. I'll point out the fact that no one witnessed this incident, either German or American. There is no USAAF report on it, and such an incident would surely have warrented such a report. I personally think Tank was flat out lying about the encounter. Either that, or the P-51's simply broke off fearing he was trying to draw them into an AA trap (a common ploy).

The fact is that P-51's were faster on the deck than the Ta152. This combine with them having "bounced" him, meaning they'd have had dive speed built up, allong with the complete lack of witnesses or P-51 pilot reports, makes this account totally unbelievable.

The only combat account I know of for this plane was vs. a Tempest at low altituded, and the according to the Ta pilot the Tempest pilot made several mistakes (relative to the Ta) which he was able to capitalize on and shoot him down. Again, I have to point to the fact that the Ta pilot knew exactly what to expect from the Tempest, where the Ta was an unknown quantity to the Tempest pilot. Besides, the fight broke down into a turn-fight, and the Tempest was not that great a turner.

Until the enemy pilots had some reasonable knowlege about the strengths and weaknesses of the Ta, combat reports of its "superiority" are questionable. Often, a plane appears much better when first introduced than it acutally really is, the Zero being a prime example.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Gemhorse]

What an awesome read, gentlemen !!...Having read William Green's version of the Ta-152 development, it's great to hear a little about what they did with them....

Erich, back around April 1944, they had started flying-out from the USA, the B-29's for the XX US Bomber Command in China/Burma/India, to start their build-up for the Allied bombing of Japan, and they flew one especially to England to help confuse the Axis as to the Theatre of Operations that B-29's were going to operate in....The ruse worked apparently......

I was wondering if anyone knows what became of the third Ta-152H-0 to leave Cottbus...[Werk-Nr.15 0003]...as it was taken to the USA after the War for testing.....Did it end-up at the Smithsonian Institute or such ???
- Cheers
- Gemhorse

 

[Lightning Guy]

As great as the Ta-152 may have been, its days were clearly numbered. The future of combat aircraft (at least fighters) belonged to the jest powered aircraft. The only real exception to this was at sea where landing and launching a jet from a carrier was still difficult.

I think RG's comments hold some water. The Ta-152 was designed for high-altitude combat without compromise. I am not sure how it would have faired in sustained low-level combat. Also, I think we may have a similar situation to the Japanese and the N1K2-J. The pilots flying the Ta-152 were bound to be some of the very best the Luftwaffe had left to offer. As a result, and given the limited number of combat encounters, it would be impossible to make definite conclusions based off of combat. Still an interesting 'what-if' though.

 

[Udet]

Lightining guy:

It seems fairly correct to affirm the Ta152 was designed for the main purpose of extremely high altitude combat.

Regarding your wondering of how the Ta152 would have fared on low level combat, there were many victories scored by Ta152´s at low altitude dogfights against the fighter frequently considered the best at low altitude: the soviet late Yaks.

All those patterns followed to doubt the capabilities of the Ta152 seem like hogwash to me. So to prove an aicraft is one of the very best fighters one must analyze the performance of thousands of them during a far longer period of time? I do not know. Perhaps aircraft developers may agree; what can not be denied is the Ta152 is in equal terms and superior in some departments to the P-51.

Perfect? No. No fighter plane was it.

In the limited numbers it saw service the worth of the machine was proven.

Still I would seriously argue the future of fighter aircraft was a 100% imminent event. Germany was the leading nation in jet power and rocketry technology, and the gap between the end of world war II and the deployment of jet fighters in relevant numbers until the North Korean conflict proves such assertion.

Piston engined aircraft continue to see service in many many countries well after WWII ended.

 

[Lightning Guy]

The argument on pilot quality still stands though. The Ta-152 was an excellent fighter but pilot quality certainly played a crucial role in the outcomes of any encounters.

 

[Anonymous]

Regarding your wondering of how the Ta152 would have fared on low level combat, there were many victories scored by Ta152´s at low altitude dogfights against the fighter frequently considered the best at low altitude: the soviet late Yaks.

All those patterns followed to doubt the capabilities of the Ta152 seem like hogwash to me. So to prove an aicraft is one of the very best fighters one must analyze the performance of thousands of them during a far longer period of time? I do not know.....

In the limited numbers it saw service the worth of the machine was proven.
.....

I disagree. There were apparently fewer than 55 operational Ta152's, and never more than about 24 at one time. And they flew very few sorties, perhaps a total of 500 or so, quite likely fewer. Pilot's flying the Ta152 were ace's with lots of experiance fighting the planes they faced, where their opponents were often relatively rookie and none of them had any experiance fighting the Ta152 nor did they have any intelligence on its strenghts and weaknesses. In fact, in at least one case I know of the Tempest pilot hesitated to attack the TA because he was unsure if it was German, American, or possibly Russian.

Until the plane has been in combat long enough for the enemy to have a reasonable idea of what they are facing, there is always an advantage to flying a new high performance fighter - it's an unknown quantity and the enemy pilots do not know what to expect from it. The numbers were far too limited, it saw far to few sorties, over a relatively short time span (about 4 months) to be considered "proven".

Still I would seriously argue the future of fighter aircraft was a 100% imminent event. Germany was the leading nation in jet power and rocketry technology, and the gap between the end of world war II and the deployment of jet fighters in relevant numbers until the North Korean conflict proves such assertion.

Piston engined aircraft continue to see service in many many countries well after WWII ended.

There were 24 operational P-80's flying by VE day, 45 by VJ day, and 563 by the end of 1945. Germany's advantage in Jet's would have been gone before the end of 1945, even had they sustained their pre-D-day position. By Spring of 1946, there would have been a thousand P-80's flying sorties over Europe, vs. at best a few hundred inferior Me262's and a smattering of He162's and other types. By summer there would have been 3000 P-80's, most with the improved 5000 lbs thrust engine.

The German "jet advantage" was not gone by VE day, but it was slipping fast.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[plan_D]

5000 lbs thrust engine? You mean the British Rolls Royce Nene engine.

 

[Anonymous]

5000 lbs thrust engine? You mean the British Rolls Royce Nene engine.

The first 345 P-80A's used the General Electric J33-GE-11 or identical Allison J33-A-9 turbojet engine, producing ~3850 lbs of thrust. The next 218 used the Allison J33-A-17 producing ~4000 lbs thrust. After this there were a another 354 P-80A's and B's built using a number of engines utilized from both manufactures raising thrust to about 4750 lbs (I rounded this to 5,000).

This whole process is very confusing to research. Post war development was slowed down considerably as there were a number of labor strikes involved (which would not have occured during war).

Performance figures for the P-80A are based upon the 3850 lbs thrust engines.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[plan_D]

That's naughty, rounding. The British had the most powerful World War 2 jet-engine with the Rolls Royce Nene designed in November 1941 with 5000 lbs thrust. Used in the MiG-15.

 

[DaveB.inVa]

I believe some variants of the P-80 had water-methanol injection that would raise the thrust over 5000lbs. I'm pretty sure it wasn't available on the YP-80's used during WWII.

I'm just curious as to where you found that the Nene was designed in 1941. All I've seen says it was designed and built in 6 months during 1944. Even the RR website says it wasn't designed until 1944.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

perhaps its' concept was thought up in 1941..................

 

[plan_D]

I'm wondering too now, it's on my favourites (the site) but I can't find it.

I have a better one with the RR Nene which is probably true -

"Stanley Hooker, who had been in charge of the Rolls-Royce design team that refined the Derwent, visited the US in the spring of 1944, and found that General Electric was developing two turbojet engines with thrust ratings of 17.6 kN (1,800 kg / 4,000 lb) or higher. Hooker, realizing that the British had been thinking small, went back to Britain and initiated a fast track project to build a new, much more powerful centrifugal-flow engine.

The result was the "RB.41 Nene", which was first bench-tested in October 1944 and provided 22.3 kN (2,270 kg / 5,000 lb) thrust. The Nene was the world's most powerful engine at the time, and it was also simple, cheap, and reliable. The Nene was made in large numbers, with versions made in Canada, Australia, France, the US, and the USSR.

The Nene was such a good engine that Rolls-Royce decided to build a scaled-down version, which was designated the "Derwent 5" though it had little direct relationship to earlier Derwent marks. The Derwent 5 was first bench-tested in June 1945, with the test engine providing 11.8 kN (1,200 kg / 2,650 lb) thrust. "

 

[Anonymous]

I believe some variants of the P-80 had water-methanol injection that would raise the thrust over 5000lbs. I'm pretty sure it wasn't available on the YP-80's used during WWII.

They were not "YP-80's", they were P-80A's. The 5400 lbs thrust engine was not available until about 1948, but it probably would have been available much sooner had the war continued. After the war, the aero-industry in the USA suffered greatly from post-war cutbacks which lead to labor strikes and other problems. Had the war continued into 1946, the -17 engine would probably have been ready by the end of that year.

Sorry for rounding Plan_D, I didn't want to look it up so I had to rely on memory.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[DaveB.inVa]

They were not "YP-80's", they were P-80A's.

=S=


Lunatic

I'm seeing YP-80A's in service during WWII.

There were thirteen YP-80A's built with serial #'s
44-83023
44-83024
44-83025
44-83026
44-83027
44-83028
44-83029
44-83030
44-83031
44-83032
44-83033
44-83034
44-83035

44-83026 and 44-83027 were shipped to England, 026 crashed on its second flight in England and 027 was modified by Rolls Royce to test the Nene engine.

44-83028 and 44-83029 were shipped to Italy for combat service tests.

All these were powered by the GE I-40 engine which became the GE/Allison J33 this engine (I-40) produced 4000lbs thrust.

 

[Gemhorse]

If you take the jets out of it for a moment, I feel the Ta-152 wouldn't have held that ascendancy for long.....
- Apart from the Mustang, there was significant piston-engined development going on that would've compromised the Ta-152 sooner or later....If this aircraft had started to become a problem, there was ongoing Tempest and Fury programmes, the fastest Fury was one with a Sabre VII, capable of 485 mph, and also De Havilland's Hornet which was about the same, and they had done alot of work on high-altitude engines, and not to mention the Spitfires, and plus other US piston-engined fighters still under development...It's rather a 'what-if' scenario, but I feel it should be mentioned.........

 

[Anonymous]

They were not "YP-80's", they were P-80A's.

=S=


Lunatic

I'm seeing YP-80A's in service during WWII.

There were thirteen YP-80A's built with serial #'s
44-83023
44-83024
44-83025
44-83026
44-83027
44-83028
44-83029
44-83030
44-83031
44-83032
44-83033
44-83034
44-83035

44-83026 and 44-83027 were shipped to England, 026 crashed on its second flight in England and 027 was modified by Rolls Royce to test the Nene engine.

44-83028 and 44-83029 were shipped to Italy for combat service tests.

All these were powered by the GE I-40 engine which became the GE/Allison J33 this engine (I-40) produced 4000lbs thrust.

The first 20 or so were designated YP-80, the next 25 were P-80A's, all delivered before VJ day. By the end if 1945 there were over 550 delivered P-80A's, plus the original 20 or so YP-80A's. The first 345 P-80A's used the General Electric J33-GE-11 or identical Allison J33-A-9 turbojet engine, developing 3850 lbs static thrust.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[DaveB.inVa]

Im going to have to side with my friend Joe Baugher on this one. Hes done a lot more research than I have... but he and I still agree

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p80.html