Anyhow this is not the beer thread so lets get off that topic in here.
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k9kiwi said:Well done Rocket Scientist.
Thats what the Allies did too.
PS. Apparently it worked, as Les' replies are in ENGLISH.
plan_D said:"I was reffering to small light bomber raid. And the 8th AF list shows about the same numbers of heavy bombers would attack an airfield as this raid."
No you weren't. As the quote from you below clearly shows, you said medium bomber missions. You've got the memory of a goldfish. And the 'Dinner' raid wasn't against an airfield, so why bring the 8th Air Force attacks on an airfield into this?
"Now tell me what small raids changed the course of the war or battle? Not the fighter bomber ones, but the medium bomber missions."
k9kiwi said:Thanks for the great laughs.
Albert Speer (heard of him SysCon) stated that over 700,000 able bodied men were involved in manning anti aircraft batteries throughout Europe, from 20mm upwards in 1944
Further, that 20,000 (one third of all production) of the 88mm cannon was involved in anti aircraft defence, when they would have been better employed in the anti tank role on the russian front.
Let alone the number of 20mm Vierling and 37mm guns needed to defend against low level, Both of which the Germans had a great penchance for using in the ground role against troops etc.
Also, raids by medium bombers served as double edged swords, sending 12 different raiding strikes against different locations at the same time as your bomber streams are reaching for 2 or 3 main targets has a slight dispersal effect upon the enemies resources.
If you now configure things with window strips, ECM etc so that the effect is to confuse or delay the realisation by ground control of where the main strike is to occur, you further weaken the defenders chances.
If you time strikes against a number of airfields while the planes are up in the air, and destroy their capacity to handle aircraft for, oh lets say 4 hours, Where do the aircraft land?
(They could stay up their only so long)
If they now have to fly 150 miles to the nearest airfield, how much is their combat time and effectiveness reduced?
Now you have repaired the holes in the dirt in 4 hours, but we have a little problem, the piddly little 1,000 pound bomb just took out or POL resources, and that tiny 500 pounder nailed the armoury.
The other one didn't cause structural damage to the airfield, but we sure are going to miss those mechanics that were in that bunker (read BIG HOLE) cause we need to fix the planes.
Also we are having a slight problem because of the 12 RAF planes that sneaked in and made a small mess at the local power station, so we are running limited resources on local generators.
Starting to get the picture. If you take a more "Holistic" view, every strike was tacticaly and Strategicaly important for the domino effect to occur.
plan_D said:3 September, 1939. The first RAF plane across the German frontier was a 139 Sqdn. Blenheim from RAF Wyton. It's mission was to reconnoitre the German fleet at Wilhelmshaven. Flying at 24,000 feet FO McPherson took 75 pictures of the fleet and recorded the wars first in the ORB.
On the same date, 83 Sqdn. Hampdens fly off to conduct a raid on the fleet anchored at Wilhelmshaven. FO Guy Gibson led a flight of six Hampdens to target. The cloud cover was 10/10 at 100 feet, so all Hampdens turned back without attacking.
Throughout the war, light and medium bombers attacked Germany. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that.
8th US Air Force raids on airfields don't have anything to do with the 'Dinner' Raid. Unless you are implying that raid is large because the US 8th Air Force used those numbers sometimes. But carried a lot more tonnage to target with the same numbers!
syscom3 said:You dont need to be a rocket scientist to know that there were no medium bomber raids east of the Rhine untill 1945 (maybe in late 1944).
syscom3 said:Now show me an RAF tactical raid into central germany in 1942, 1943 and 1944.
DerAdlerIstGelandet said:Absolutely wrong agin syscom and I can prove it to you.
Remember the war was allready going on before the Americans entered. The British were fighting (yes syscom WW2 started before Dec. 7, 1941).
The British were using Mosquitos in small numbers to bomb Germany as early as 1942.
The first raid was by 5 Mosquitos to Koeln Germany on 31 May 1942. This raid accomplished nothing but keep the Germans off there guard but it was still a raid.
19 Sept 1942: 6 Mosquitos attacked Berlin
Those are just two example, do you care to retract your statement syscom?
DerAdlerIstGelandet said:Just did numbnuts!
plan_D said:Syscom, you just stated that no light or medium bombers raided across the Rhine. Wilhelmshaven is a long way east of the Rhine. I apologise, I assumed that showing you the two sorties to Wilhelmshaven on 3rd September would show you the RAF was willing to send medium and light bombers to Germany. Obviously you're not intelligent enough to catch on to that.
Once again though, you're back pedalling. It's clear to everyone that you stated no light or medium bombers raided across the Rhine until 1944 or 1945. I've proven that they did so in 1939. So, now, 1939 doesn't count. And only 1942, 1943 and early 1944 count? Well, Adler just provided some.
I still don't have a clue what you're trying to get at while talking about the US 8th Air Force.
(RAF History - Bomber Command 60th Anniversary)2/3 July 1942
Bremen
325 aircraft - 175 Wellingtons, 53 Lancasters, 35 Halifaxes, 34 Stirlings, 28 Hampdens. 13 aircraft - 8 Wellingtons, 2 Hampdens, 2 Stirlings, 1 Halifax - lost.
265 aircraft claimed to have bombed in good visibility but it is probable that much of the attack fell outside the southern borders of the town. A brief Bremen report says that more than 1,000 houses and 4 small industrial firms were damaged. 3 cranes and 7 ships in the port were also hit; 1 of the ships, the 1,736-ton steamer Marieborg sank and is recorded as having become a danger to navigation. Only 5 people were killed and 4 injured.
Intruders: 24 Blenheims were dispatched and attacked many airfields without loss.
syscom3 said:the Mosquito's couldnt be considered as light bombers as they performed more like fighter bombers.
syscom3 said:Now show me an A20 attack into the Rhur that didnt get slaughtered.