Tactical Strikes of World War II

[plan_D]

Gnomey, that doesn't count. Because they're not A-20 raids! The only way, at the moment, to prove him wrong is to provide an A-20 raid after 1941 but before 1944. Far from the coast in Germany. Duh!!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

show me what?

Proved you wrong, but you are so blind to it as usual...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Okay here is an A-20 raid.

07 April 1942. 12 A-20s (6 from the 15th USAAF group and 6 from RAF 226 Squadron) attacked German airfields.

 

[syscom3]

Just an extract from the bomber command diary for July 1942:

(RAF History - Bomber Command 60th Anniversary)

There you can see light/medium bombers raiding east of the Rhine (albeit with heavy bombers), the Blenheim mission in particular you claim would be suicide yet they returned without loss. The same could be said for the unarmed Mosquito bombers (you can't call the unarmed ones fighter bombers) which are also light bombers and raided beyond the Rhine on most days of the war during from 1942 onwards during both the day and the night and they had some of the lowest losses in bomber command...

isnt Breman a port city? and didnt they bomb this city at night?

Now quote me an actuall raid into central germany east of the rhur where medium or light bombers were used during daylight.

 

[syscom3]

So, now, we have no medium or light bombers attacking across the Rhine until late 1944 or 1945. Then it changed to 1939-1941 don't count. And now we have to show an A-20 raid before from 1942 to early 1944.

Youre cherry picking the attack on port cities where the bombers can approach with near impunity.

raids in 1939-1941 dont count as defenses havent been built up in germany yet.

now show me a light bomber raid into germany proper, during 1943 and most of 1944 when the Luftwaffe would have been in strength

 

[syscom3]

Wrong! Read up on your history of Mosquito (I know it is not a US built aircraft but it did still exist), and you might know that. There were Mosquitos that were under [/b]Fighter Command[/b] and there Mosquitos that were under Bomber Command. The ones that fell under Fighter Command acted as fighter bombers, the ones under Bomber Command acted as full Bobmers carrying 2000 to 4000 pounds of bombs.

The performance of the mosquito was such, it was more a fighter bomber. Once it dropped its load, it could get out with good speed. and its load carrying was adaquate. Plus it was maneuverable enough still carrying its payload that it could "jink" and complicate the flak guns aiming.

Now you are getting desperate syscom. Give it the hell up!

I'm not french and have no desire to give it up.

If they went in as a strategic strike, yes they would be slaughterd, but as small tactical strikes (which you would not really do in the Ruhr area anyhow, because you would use large formations of strategic heavy bombers to bomb the industry there) then yes the A-20 would be successful.

No A20's ventured far into the occupied countries, let alone go penetrate german airspace, even with heavy fighter escort.

B26's didnt even penetrate german airspace untill after airfields were established in France and the luftwaffe destroyed. even then, they maintained their bombing altitudes of about 9000 ft or higher.

and it wouldnt have been any different for the RAF light bombers (except for the mosquito's)
Tell me syscom if the A-20 was slaughtered so much, then why the USAAF continue to use it.

Your argument carries no wieght again. When will you see this.

Exactly what I say about you

 

[syscom3]

Okay here is an A-20 raid.

07 April 1942. 12 A-20s (6 from the 15th USAAF group and 6 from RAF 226 Squadron) attacked German airfields.

And what german field was that?

Sounds like it was A20's attacking german airfields in occupied France.

 

[plan_D]

"Youre cherry picking the attack on port cities where the bombers can approach with near impunity.

raids in 1939-1941 dont count as defenses havent been built up in germany yet.

now show me a light bomber raid into germany proper, during 1943 and most of 1944 when the Luftwaffe would have been in strength"

How was I cherry picking, syscom? I was merely pointing you to be incorrect in your statement that no medium or light bombers attacked east of the Rhine before late 1944. I wouldn't want someone coming on here and getting the wrong idea.

You are the one back pedalling and changing everything. Now the Mosquito doesn't count as a light bomber. 1939-1941 don't count. Only B-26s and A-20s count.

Syscom, be serious for a moment. Provide the evidence for your cause. Provide a solid statement that you won't change and alter to suit your needs. For once, syscom, act like an adult and try to learn something. All it is with you is winning the argument, not discussing the facts or learning. Instead of me spending money on a book containing all of the US 9th Air Force raids ... how about you provide some evidence, somewhere?

I am currently reading through three volumes of 2nd Tactical Air Force. That span from June 1943 - May 1945. It's a very handy series of books, and I can gladly provide information on the 2nd TAF raids through it's service. If I find a raid on Germany before August 1944 by something other than a Mosquito , or heavy bomber, or fighter-bomber ('Cos Mustang IIIs of 2nd TAF raided German airfields IN Germany before moving to the continent) then I'll produce it. But at least I'm attempting to find something. And even if I don't, it won't make any difference to this "discussion" because all you're trying to do is be right ... but you've deviated so far from your original point, on so many statements it is continually laughable. Everyone who's read this thread is LAUGHING at you syscom. And I don't blame them.

 

[plan_D]

I have just ordered 2 Group RAF : A Complete History 1936 - 1945, Ninth Air Force in World War II and US Ninth Air Force in Colour: UK and Continent - World War II.

So, it should provide a lot of sortie listings.

 

[syscom3]

[
You are the one back pedalling and changing everything. Now the Mosquito doesn't count as a light bomber. 1939-1941 don't count. Only B-26s and A-20s count.

No I'm not. The Mosquito had the speed and capability of a fighter bomber, not a light attack bomber. Big difference. And I would include the B25's in the equation, but the AAF didnt fly them out of England.

Syscom, be serious for a moment. Provide the evidence for your cause. Provide a solid statement that you won't change and alter to suit your needs. For once, syscom, act like an adult and try to learn something. All it is with you is winning the argument, not discussing the facts or learning. Instead of me spending money on a book containing all of the US 9th Air Force raids ... how about you provide some evidence, somewhere?

I didnt know I had that much influence over you. Maybe I can find some other things to argue over so YOU can spend the money.

I am currently reading through three volumes of 2nd Tactical Air Force. That span from June 1943 - May 1945. It's a very handy series of books, and I can gladly provide information on the 2nd TAF raids through it's service. If I find a raid on Germany before August 1944 by something other than a Mosquito , or heavy bomber, or fighter-bomber ('Cos Mustang IIIs of 2nd TAF raided German airfields IN Germany before moving to the continent) then I'll produce it. But at least I'm attempting to find something. And even if I don't, it won't make any difference to this "discussion" because all you're trying to do is be right ... but you've deviated so far from your original point, on so many statements it is continually laughable. Everyone who's read this thread is LAUGHING at you syscom. And I don't blame them.

Mustang III's are single engined fighters.

 

[plan_D]

You haven't got any influence, syscom. I've been looking into tactical bomber raids for months, they interest me more than strategic bomber raids. Now I have the entire operational history of 2nd Tactical Air Force. And since I'll eventually have to look into both the US Ninth and Twelfth Air Forces, I may as well do it now. You really are all the way up your own arse, syscom.

The Mosquito had the speed and capability of a fighter-bomber? Even the ones without guns, dipsh*t? Mustang Mk.IIIs carrying bombs, fighter-bombers.

You've proved your use on this forum, absolutely none. You won't research anything yourself. You are unwilling to learn. You just exist to irritate people, and in that attempt everyone is laughing at you.

 

[Hunter368]

PlanD,

I have to commend you in your handling of syscom in the "tactical airstrikes thread". You have been patient with a person who will just not admit when he is wrong. Well done PlanD for not turning this into a name calling thread. And proving your point beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Syscom,

Everyone and everything points to syscom being wrong, being wrong is not that bad syscom, just admit you were wrong. Give it to PlanD, tell him he is right and end this discussion. Syscom you are a smart guy but refusing to admit when you are wrong makes you look bad. Read my sig. I tell this to people all the time at work, making a mistake is not the end of the world. Some people fear making a mistake or admitting when they are wrong.Every person here thinks you are wrong, if you were right then do you think you are smarter than ever single USAF General ( not to mention every single General in WW2 and since then the present date) who decided to use tactical airstrikes? Thats a pretty big ego if you think that.


Well done PlanD, not sure if I would of been so patient. Thumbs up for you.

IMHO,

Hunter368

 

[k9kiwi]

the Mosquito's couldnt be considered as light bombers as they performed more like fighter bombers.

Said repeatedly by SysCon with variations.

The Mosquito Bomber version HAD NO GUNS it had a nose blister for the navigator to use when on the bomb run. It relied on its speed for survival.

Pretty much up to the introduction of the ME262 there were no axis planes that could catch it in a staight line race.

PRU units used the Mosquito for exactly that reason and the altitudes it could reach

In fact the Mosi was produced in 43 variants, only beaten in numbers of variants by the JU88.

Of the 43 variants only 9 were equiped as FB models, and 11 as NF models. So of 43 variants only 20 carried weapons, under 1/2 the variants made.

A Mosi could happily (in the bomber configuration) carry a 4,000 pound cookie or other bomb load to Berlin or other targets.

Your vaunted b-17 would normally load out with LESS than a single Mosi for a Berlin raid. Bit of a waste of two engines and 9 crew that would appear to be.

Perchance you should have just built shed loads of Mosi's and swarmed all over the germans.

 

[plan_D]

According to syscom, even the bomber variants of the Mosquito are fighter-bombers! Or they just won't count 'cos the Mosquito has proven him wrong on another point.

And thank you, Hunter. I've shocked myself with how calm I've been.

 

[k9kiwi]

As to some raid dates here ya go.

13/14 April 43
6 Mosquitos of No 105 Squadron, carried out nuisance raids to Bremen, Hamburg and Wilhelmshaven

20/21 April 43
11 Mosquitos carried out a raid to Berlin as a diversion for the forces attacking Stettin and Rostock

13/14 May 43
12 Mosquitos to Berlin

15/16 May 43
3 Mosquitos to Berlin

16/17 May 43
9 Mosquitos to Berlin. Note this was the same night as the "Dam Buster" mission

19/20 May 43
6 Mosquitos to Berlin

The list goes on and on.

Syscon, if you want to actually learn something here is the reference site you may want to poke your snout into.
RAF History - Bomber Command 60th Anniversary

Note that this is the RAF's very own official web site, and the page is the Bomber Command page, showing every mission, dates and aircraft involved, where they went to etc.

Now if someone wanted to be ACCURATE with their statements, this might be a place to start.

 

[Hunter368]

According to syscom, even the bomber variants of the Mosquito are fighter-bombers! Or they just won't count 'cos the Mosquito has proven him wrong on another point.

And thank you, Hunter. I've shocked myself with how calm I've been.

He just keeps telling you that you can't use that example you can't use that one either etc, ahhhhhhh. Or you can only use the years from 42-before 44!!!! Well why does he not norrow the parameters soooo small until you can't prove your point!! Frustrating.

But I have always found it most fulfilling to prove someone wrong and have them admit it than just telling they are or are being a jackazz.

I am not trying to put words into PlanD mouth here but I am impressed PlanD with your patiences and information gathering skills.

PlanD you might just have to give it up, I don't think syscom will ever admit what is plain to everyone else to see. Syscom is a smart guy but he never admits when he is wrong. How does that saying go......you can't argue with a ....

I think you know how it goes.

 

[syscom3]

You've proved your use on this forum, absolutely none. You won't research anything yourself. You are unwilling to learn. You just exist to irritate people, and in that attempt everyone is laughing at you.

If the admins think Im no use to this site, they are more than happy to kick me off.

 

[syscom3]

He just keeps telling you that you can't use that example you can't use that one either etc, ahhhhhhh. Or you can only use the years from 42-before 44!!!! Well why does he not norrow the parameters soooo small until you can't prove your point!! Frustrating.

Vaste differences occured between 1939 to 1942 and then 1943 throught he end of the war.

Once the Luftwaffe was up to speed in defense, the light attack bombers were proven to be useless.

But I have always found it most fulfilling to prove someone wrong and have them admit it than just telling they are or are being a jackazz.

Yes, you guys sometimes are a pain the butt, but I can handle it.

I am not trying to put words into PlanD mouth here but I am impressed PlanD with your patiences and information gathering skills.

yes he has some good facts at his disposal. but not all of them.

PlanD you might just have to give it up, I don't think syscom will ever admit what is plain to everyone else to see. Syscom is a smart guy but he never admits when he is wrong. How does that saying go......you can't argue with a .... .

Ive admitted Ive been wrong before.

 

[syscom3]

Said repeatedly by SysCon with variations.

The Mosquito Bomber version HAD NO GUNS it had a nose blister for the navigator to use when on the bomb run. It relied on its speed for survival.

It sure had fighter-bomber performance charteristics. Speed and good payload. Plus maneuverabilty. just add guns

PRU units used the Mosquito for exactly that reason and the altitudes it could reach

In fact the Mosi was produced in 43 variants, only beaten in numbers of variants by the JU88.

Of the 43 variants only 9 were equiped as FB models, and 11 as NF models. So of 43 variants only 20 carried weapons, under 1/2 the variants made.

yes, a very good airplane indeed. By the way, did I ever say the Mosquito WASNT a usefull plane?

A Mosi could happily (in the bomber configuration) carry a 4,000 pound cookie or other bomb load to Berlin or other targets.

Your vaunted b-17 would normally load out with LESS than a single Mosi for a Berlin raid. Bit of a waste of two engines and 9 crew that would appear to be.

Most B17's loaded out around 6000 pounds and carried it over a considerable distance. And you do know it was four engines and 11 crewman.

But are you trying to say that the mosquito was a better fighter bomber or the B17 a better strategic bomber?

Perchance you should have just built shed loads of Mosi's and swarmed all over the germans.

The B17 did many things the Mosquito couldnt do, and the Mosquito did things the B17 couldnt do.

 

[syscom3]

As to some raid dates here ya go.

13/14 April 43
6 Mosquitos of No 105 Squadron, carried out nuisance raids to Bremen, Hamburg and Wilhelmshaven

20/21 April 43
11 Mosquitos carried out a raid to Berlin as a diversion for the forces attacking Stettin and Rostock

13/14 May 43
12 Mosquitos to Berlin

15/16 May 43
3 Mosquitos to Berlin

16/17 May 43
9 Mosquitos to Berlin. Note this was the same night as the "Dam Buster" mission

19/20 May 43
6 Mosquitos to Berlin

The list goes on and on.

Syscon, if you want to actually learn something here is the reference site you may want to poke your snout into.
RAF History - Bomber Command 60th Anniversary

Note that this is the RAF's very own official web site, and the page is the Bomber Command page, showing every mission, dates and aircraft involved, where they went to etc.

Now if someone wanted to be ACCURATE with their statements, this might be a place to start.

Excellent. We know Mosquito's went to Berlin, probably at night.

Now did any Mosquito's (carrying bombs at low altitude of course), A20's, B25's or B26's go to Berlin during the day?