I have started this thread because I have noticed that some members, especially syscom, cannot grasp the idea between a tactical target and a strategic target. Nor can some members understand that it's better to send in smaller, faster bombers to destroy smaller tactical targets.
It all started with me describing a Ar 234 attack on the Liége railyards.
"It performed the worlds first jet bomber raid on 24 December when nine Ar-234B-2s attacked the rail yards at Liége. Each armed with a single SC 500 (1,100 lb) bomb the Arado bombers all attacked, and reported success without loss."
I don't like picking up on single people, but syscom has provided the best amount of quotes to show a lack of understanding. Or maybe you're just trying to be right, rather than actually trying to learn.
Here they are:
"Nine jet bombers carrying nine bombs total. Not much of a payload to be considered usefull, is it."
"I'd take a mosquito or a Lanc over a -234 any day."
::Bold added by me::
"But its trading payload for speed, and that means the larger targets it would eventually need to attack would require hundreds of them to accomplish anything."
I will come back to this, as it's said as a point against the Ar 234. Yet later, syscom states that all Allied bombers required hundreds to attack these targets. Making his original assault on the Ar 234 null and void. When ask what these larger targets were:
"Airfields, troop concentrations, bridges, supply depots, harbors, blah blah blah."
"Stop the presses!!!!! OMG..... the Luftwaffe was so good that it only took a few -234's carrying a few bombs to put out of commision tactical targets that required hundreds of allied bombers to do. Oh yeah, and that includes the -88's and other German bombers that needed hundreds of planes to do the same on the Allies."
"By the way, hordes of B26's and -47's and -38's would attack a single target (and I suppose the RAF did the same). And they were just as accurate as the -234. In fact probably more accurate because high speed often means introduces new errors."
"The B26's attacked in wing strength, involving 3 groups or more per target. Thats about 100 - 300 B26's per mission. The fighter bombers would go out a few at a time or send out a whole group. But they are fighters, not bombers."
I would like to be informed what targets these B-26s were attacking. Now, I see that you suppose the RAF did the same. You are claiming that the RAF attack tactical targets with hundreds of light and medium bombers. Okay.
Let's use syscom's template for tactical targets:
Airfields.
Troop Concentrations.
Bridges.
Supply Depots.
Harbours.
Anyone can add more, or disagree with syscoms list. Fine by me. These targets, according to syscom, would take hundreds of Ar 234s to attack.
Or, as he states, 'hordes' of B-26s. And he assumes the RAF would do the same. These targets would be very specific and precise. Attacks on these targets with fighter escort would be called a 'Ramrod' by the RAF.
13 June, 1943, 12 Venturas of 464 Sqdn. raid St. Brieuc airfield.
4 July, 1943, 12 Mitchells of 2 Group raid Amiens.
15 July, 1943, 12 107 Sqdn. Bostons raid Poix.
26 July, 1943, 9 Bostons raid Courtrai.
8 August, 1943, 2 Group squadrons, 88, 107 and 342 send 40 Bostons to raid Naval stores at Rennes. Described as a "fairly heavy raid".
16 August, 1943, 88, 107 and 342 Sqdn. send 37 Bostons to raid armament and steel works at Denain. (More like a strategic attack to me)
27 August, 1943, 107 Sqdn. send 6 Bostons to raid Gosnay power station.
22 October, 1943, 72 B-26s raided Evreux.
25 Octorber, 1943, 24 Mitchells of 98 and 320 Sqdn. raided Brest/Lanveoc airfield.
3 October, 1943, 464 and 487 Sqdn. send 12 Mosqutioes each to Guerledon and Pont Chateau power stations. 12 Bostons of 107 Sqdn. attack Orleans power station, 11 Bostons of 342 Sqdn. attack Chevilly-la-Rue, and 14 Bostons of 88 Sqdn. attack Distre.
It appears to me that the RAF didn't attack tactical targets with hundreds of bombers. Because they knew that would be a waste of resources. It would be better to send in smaller bombers, flying lower and faster to hit with precision.
So, syscoms claim that the RAF attacked with hundreds (100 - 300) of bombers against airfields, supply dumps and other tactical targets is false. Any discussion, or addition is welcome. Or any question on the 2nd TAF operations is also welcome.
It all started with me describing a Ar 234 attack on the Liége railyards.
"It performed the worlds first jet bomber raid on 24 December when nine Ar-234B-2s attacked the rail yards at Liége. Each armed with a single SC 500 (1,100 lb) bomb the Arado bombers all attacked, and reported success without loss."
I don't like picking up on single people, but syscom has provided the best amount of quotes to show a lack of understanding. Or maybe you're just trying to be right, rather than actually trying to learn.
Here they are:
"Nine jet bombers carrying nine bombs total. Not much of a payload to be considered usefull, is it."
"I'd take a mosquito or a Lanc over a -234 any day."
::Bold added by me::
"But its trading payload for speed, and that means the larger targets it would eventually need to attack would require hundreds of them to accomplish anything."
I will come back to this, as it's said as a point against the Ar 234. Yet later, syscom states that all Allied bombers required hundreds to attack these targets. Making his original assault on the Ar 234 null and void. When ask what these larger targets were:
"Airfields, troop concentrations, bridges, supply depots, harbors, blah blah blah."
"Stop the presses!!!!! OMG..... the Luftwaffe was so good that it only took a few -234's carrying a few bombs to put out of commision tactical targets that required hundreds of allied bombers to do. Oh yeah, and that includes the -88's and other German bombers that needed hundreds of planes to do the same on the Allies."
"By the way, hordes of B26's and -47's and -38's would attack a single target (and I suppose the RAF did the same). And they were just as accurate as the -234. In fact probably more accurate because high speed often means introduces new errors."
"The B26's attacked in wing strength, involving 3 groups or more per target. Thats about 100 - 300 B26's per mission. The fighter bombers would go out a few at a time or send out a whole group. But they are fighters, not bombers."
I would like to be informed what targets these B-26s were attacking. Now, I see that you suppose the RAF did the same. You are claiming that the RAF attack tactical targets with hundreds of light and medium bombers. Okay.
Let's use syscom's template for tactical targets:
Airfields.
Troop Concentrations.
Bridges.
Supply Depots.
Harbours.
Anyone can add more, or disagree with syscoms list. Fine by me. These targets, according to syscom, would take hundreds of Ar 234s to attack.
Or, as he states, 'hordes' of B-26s. And he assumes the RAF would do the same. These targets would be very specific and precise. Attacks on these targets with fighter escort would be called a 'Ramrod' by the RAF.
13 June, 1943, 12 Venturas of 464 Sqdn. raid St. Brieuc airfield.
4 July, 1943, 12 Mitchells of 2 Group raid Amiens.
15 July, 1943, 12 107 Sqdn. Bostons raid Poix.
26 July, 1943, 9 Bostons raid Courtrai.
8 August, 1943, 2 Group squadrons, 88, 107 and 342 send 40 Bostons to raid Naval stores at Rennes. Described as a "fairly heavy raid".
16 August, 1943, 88, 107 and 342 Sqdn. send 37 Bostons to raid armament and steel works at Denain. (More like a strategic attack to me)
27 August, 1943, 107 Sqdn. send 6 Bostons to raid Gosnay power station.
22 October, 1943, 72 B-26s raided Evreux.
25 Octorber, 1943, 24 Mitchells of 98 and 320 Sqdn. raided Brest/Lanveoc airfield.
3 October, 1943, 464 and 487 Sqdn. send 12 Mosqutioes each to Guerledon and Pont Chateau power stations. 12 Bostons of 107 Sqdn. attack Orleans power station, 11 Bostons of 342 Sqdn. attack Chevilly-la-Rue, and 14 Bostons of 88 Sqdn. attack Distre.
It appears to me that the RAF didn't attack tactical targets with hundreds of bombers. Because they knew that would be a waste of resources. It would be better to send in smaller bombers, flying lower and faster to hit with precision.
So, syscoms claim that the RAF attacked with hundreds (100 - 300) of bombers against airfields, supply dumps and other tactical targets is false. Any discussion, or addition is welcome. Or any question on the 2nd TAF operations is also welcome.