syscom3
Pacific Historian
mosquitoman said:
Read my previous posts before you misquote me.
I said the RAF had similar medium groups like the 9th and 12 AF's and they attacked the same targets with the same numbers of aircraft.
Tactical Strikes of World War II
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Read my previous posts before you misquote me.
I said the RAF had similar medium groups like the 9th and 12 AF's and they attacked the same targets with the same numbers of aircraft.
Glider
Captain
May I suggest you follow your own advice.
PD's first posting listed a number of raids and all bar one was a small raid and most used B25, B26, Ventura and A20 bombers. This has been backed up by other postings.
PD's second posting listed a number of USAF raids all of with 72 planes.
Can I ask for your evidence to back up your statements, because all the evidence is against you.
PD's first posting listed a number of raids and all bar one was a small raid and most used B25, B26, Ventura and A20 bombers. This has been backed up by other postings.
PD's second posting listed a number of USAF raids all of with 72 planes.
Can I ask for your evidence to back up your statements, because all the evidence is against you.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
plan_D said:
The large raids were the effective ones, the small raids didnt do much.
The massed strategic raids when they went after the transportation targets often blew the railyards to pieces. When they bombed the airfields, they would pput so many craters all over the place, the airfield was often out of action for a couple of days.
Your theory about a couple of well placed bombs on some targets like railyards and airfields that would knock them out as destroyed doesnt hold water as its simple to repair. Lots of holes = lots of dirt needing to be moved.
Hes correct. But sometimes you also want to hit the material piled up on the sides of the bridge. Thats where lots of bombs are needed.
And the fighter bombers did eventually have more success against the smaller bridges than any of the bombers, the -234 included.
......
It seems the US 9th AF generally sent seventy-two B-26s on a raid, which I assume to be airfields.[/QUOTE]
Agree'd, and I looked at some of my sources too, and that looks like the 1943 standard for airfield attacks.
Im still looking for middle and late 1944 tallys.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Glider said:
blah blah blah.
Ive been trying to say that that precision bombing did not exist in WW2. It happened in a few raids by very well trained crews but as a rule for everyone, those raids were very far and few between, and often didnt have any impact on the course of the war or battle.
It was the massed groups of bombers dropping lots of bombs plastering everything around the aiming point is what did damage and did effect the battles.
72 B26's hitting an airfield will do more lasting damage with hundreds of bombs hitting all over the place, than a few bombers could. And that goes for a lot of other targets too.
plan_D said:
Where did you get the info on the raids. I would be interested in seeing more of that stuff. I have found info like that in books but it seems youve got more info than I have. Would be interesting to have it as well.
syscom3 said:
Do not blah blah blah him. Both pD and gnomey have given you substantial evidence that disproves you and proves you have no concept of how large scale wars are one. As he said you have not backed up your arguements with anything but the same old statements over and over again.
God forbid, think about the infantry grunts that died in small skirmishes against the German infantry because they died for no cause what so ever at all based off of your arguements. Think about it.
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Ummm, sys, which is it??? Did it happen or not, cause I think ur in over ur head here pal... Small raids did change the course of the war, and in some instance killed as many of the enemy as did the large scale carpet bombing missions....
If the argument is which was more effective at grinding Germany to a halt, it would be the large 100+ bombing raids... But that is not whats at issue here.... U said basically that small unit bombing missions were useless, and its been proven not to be true....
U do know that many large bombing missions sometimes missed their marks by up to several miles???
- Thread starter
- #28
"The large raids were the effective ones, the small raids didnt do much."
Why do you believe this? Have you got evidence to back this up?
"The massed strategic raids when they went after the transportation targets often blew the railyards to pieces. When they bombed the airfields, they would pput so many craters all over the place, the airfield was often out of action for a couple of days."
If a large percentage of the bombers hit the target it would completely destroy the marshalling yards, I cannot disagree. But this does not mean that a smaller raid would not destroy the exact same target. There certainly would be less craters around the target, but it doesn't mean there would be less on the target.
When heavy bombers attacked airfields they did manage to crater a very large area, if they went near the target. From 15,000 - 30,000 feet airfields are a hard target to hit precisely. But hitting the fields around the runway don't do anything, they don't need to be filled in and don't affect the managing of the airfield.
A smaller raid by tactical bombers attacking individual targets would provide a far greater hinderance to the enemy. Attacking the control tower, Sqdn. HQ buildings, hangars and cratering the runway is much more efficient.
"Your theory about a couple of well placed bombs on some targets like railyards and airfields that would knock them out as destroyed doesnt hold water as its simple to repair. Lots of holes = lots of dirt needing to be moved."
Lots of holes, not all on important areas. Hangars, buildings and planes are not easily repaired when collapsed, gutted and destroyed. My 'theory' is sound, as it was practised during World War II, and it's still practised to this day.
"Hes correct. But sometimes you also want to hit the material piled up on the sides of the bridge. Thats where lots of bombs are needed.
And the fighter bombers did eventually have more success against the smaller bridges than any of the bombers, the -234 included."
If you wish to hit the "material" around the bridge, a few more bombers could be used. While some attack the bridge itself, the other bombers attack around the bridge.
Fighter-Bombers became extremely useful in the tactical strikes. And these are just an addition to my evidence that you do not need a lot of heavy bombers to destroy large targets. Fighter-Bombers are even smaller than the B-25, B-26 or Mosquito and they did, sometimes, just a good of a job.
The Ar 234 was just as capable, if not more, than any other medium bomber of the war. I never said it's bombing accuracy was special. This whole discussion is about tactical bombers and their usage, "the -234 included."
"Agree'd, and I looked at some of my sources too, and that looks like the 1943 standard for airfield attacks.
Im still looking for middle and late 1944 tallys."
What exactly are your sources, syscom? Can you provide us with some US 9th AF raids in 1943?
" It was the massed groups of bombers dropping lots of bombs plastering everything around the aiming point is what did damage and did effect the battles."
So, the destruction of all those bridges, rail lines, locomotives, HQs, supply depots, railyards, power stations, rocket sites, roads, airfields and various other targets by small tactical bombers, or fighter bombers was a waste of time?
"72 B26's hitting an airfield will do more lasting damage with hundreds of bombs hitting all over the place, than a few bombers could. And that goes for a lot of other targets too."
They would do no more damage because most of the bombs would drop harmlessly on the grass around the airfield.
Since we can't expect to have syscom find some Ninth Air Force raids from 1944;
7 March, 1944, 401 Sqdn. escorted one-hundred and eight ( 108 ) B-26s to Creil Marshalling Yards.
15 March, 1944, 72 B-26s attack Aulnoy marshalling yards.
I assume that the Creil marshalling yards were splattered with bombs, and put out of action. Right syscom? What do your sources say?
Chris, my information comes from 2nd Tactical Air Force - Spartan to Normandy by Christopher Shores Chris Thomas. It's a day by day account of the 2nd TAF. Not all raids are reported, by each day of operations lists claims and losses.
Why do you believe this? Have you got evidence to back this up?
"The massed strategic raids when they went after the transportation targets often blew the railyards to pieces. When they bombed the airfields, they would pput so many craters all over the place, the airfield was often out of action for a couple of days."
If a large percentage of the bombers hit the target it would completely destroy the marshalling yards, I cannot disagree. But this does not mean that a smaller raid would not destroy the exact same target. There certainly would be less craters around the target, but it doesn't mean there would be less on the target.
When heavy bombers attacked airfields they did manage to crater a very large area, if they went near the target. From 15,000 - 30,000 feet airfields are a hard target to hit precisely. But hitting the fields around the runway don't do anything, they don't need to be filled in and don't affect the managing of the airfield.
A smaller raid by tactical bombers attacking individual targets would provide a far greater hinderance to the enemy. Attacking the control tower, Sqdn. HQ buildings, hangars and cratering the runway is much more efficient.
"Your theory about a couple of well placed bombs on some targets like railyards and airfields that would knock them out as destroyed doesnt hold water as its simple to repair. Lots of holes = lots of dirt needing to be moved."
Lots of holes, not all on important areas. Hangars, buildings and planes are not easily repaired when collapsed, gutted and destroyed. My 'theory' is sound, as it was practised during World War II, and it's still practised to this day.
"Hes correct. But sometimes you also want to hit the material piled up on the sides of the bridge. Thats where lots of bombs are needed.
And the fighter bombers did eventually have more success against the smaller bridges than any of the bombers, the -234 included."
If you wish to hit the "material" around the bridge, a few more bombers could be used. While some attack the bridge itself, the other bombers attack around the bridge.
Fighter-Bombers became extremely useful in the tactical strikes. And these are just an addition to my evidence that you do not need a lot of heavy bombers to destroy large targets. Fighter-Bombers are even smaller than the B-25, B-26 or Mosquito and they did, sometimes, just a good of a job.
The Ar 234 was just as capable, if not more, than any other medium bomber of the war. I never said it's bombing accuracy was special. This whole discussion is about tactical bombers and their usage, "the -234 included."
"Agree'd, and I looked at some of my sources too, and that looks like the 1943 standard for airfield attacks.
Im still looking for middle and late 1944 tallys."
What exactly are your sources, syscom? Can you provide us with some US 9th AF raids in 1943?
" It was the massed groups of bombers dropping lots of bombs plastering everything around the aiming point is what did damage and did effect the battles."
So, the destruction of all those bridges, rail lines, locomotives, HQs, supply depots, railyards, power stations, rocket sites, roads, airfields and various other targets by small tactical bombers, or fighter bombers was a waste of time?
"72 B26's hitting an airfield will do more lasting damage with hundreds of bombs hitting all over the place, than a few bombers could. And that goes for a lot of other targets too."
They would do no more damage because most of the bombs would drop harmlessly on the grass around the airfield.
Since we can't expect to have syscom find some Ninth Air Force raids from 1944;
7 March, 1944, 401 Sqdn. escorted one-hundred and eight ( 108 ) B-26s to Creil Marshalling Yards.
15 March, 1944, 72 B-26s attack Aulnoy marshalling yards.
I assume that the Creil marshalling yards were splattered with bombs, and put out of action. Right syscom? What do your sources say?
Chris, my information comes from 2nd Tactical Air Force - Spartan to Normandy by Christopher Shores Chris Thomas. It's a day by day account of the 2nd TAF. Not all raids are reported, by each day of operations lists claims and losses.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Fighter bombers provided the direct support to the troops, with the FAC calling them in.
Multi engined bombers had pre briefed targets that were hit and in no way were the targets changed once they were in the air. Do you have evidence that the medium bombers of the RAF or AAF providing that service?
And so what if the strategic bombers occasionally missed by a few miles. Sometimes the medium bombers and fighter bombers missed by a couple hundred yards with the same result. A miss is as good as a mile.
Now tell me what small raids changed the course of the war or battle? Not the fighter bomber ones, but the medium bomber missions.
Multi engined bombers had pre briefed targets that were hit and in no way were the targets changed once they were in the air. Do you have evidence that the medium bombers of the RAF or AAF providing that service?
And so what if the strategic bombers occasionally missed by a few miles. Sometimes the medium bombers and fighter bombers missed by a couple hundred yards with the same result. A miss is as good as a mile.
Now tell me what small raids changed the course of the war or battle? Not the fighter bomber ones, but the medium bomber missions.
Supporting the troop isn't the only kind of tactical bombing. There is also the attacking of small infrastructure targets such as bridges, canals, tunnels etc to disrupt enemy supply lines.
There are no medium bomber raids that changed the course of the war in themselves (same with the heavy bomber raids) but as whole the damage the did helped to bring the German transport infrastucture (particularly the railways to a halt). As for battles look at the Normandy campaign, the transportation plan where the heavy and medium bombers went after all of the railway infrastructure. Trains dropped from 100% of capacity to around 30% or less by early June, dramatically hampering the German supply situation. The heavies went after the railyards whereas the medium bombers went on tactical raid on the bridges and tunnels (as have been mentioned in previous posts) as well as airfields. Without this you could say the Allies would of lost the Battle of the buildup, and probably lost the beachhead.
There are no medium bomber raids that changed the course of the war in themselves (same with the heavy bomber raids) but as whole the damage the did helped to bring the German transport infrastucture (particularly the railways to a halt). As for battles look at the Normandy campaign, the transportation plan where the heavy and medium bombers went after all of the railway infrastructure. Trains dropped from 100% of capacity to around 30% or less by early June, dramatically hampering the German supply situation. The heavies went after the railyards whereas the medium bombers went on tactical raid on the bridges and tunnels (as have been mentioned in previous posts) as well as airfields. Without this you could say the Allies would of lost the Battle of the buildup, and probably lost the beachhead.
- Thread starter
- #31
Glider
Captain
syscom3 said:
I think we can say that we are still waiting for your evidence. All you seem to be supporting is the Bomber Cammand Area bombing approach.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
plan_D said:
I never claimed it wouldnt. On the contrary, the medium bomber campaign ensured victory and hastened the collapse of Nazi Germany.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
You will have to wait untill tomorrow.
I found website of all the missions of a B26 group in the 12th AF.
Its on my work PC, so you will just have to wait.
I found website of all the missions of a B26 group in the 12th AF.
Its on my work PC, so you will just have to wait.
- Thread starter
- #35
Syscom:
"Now tell me what small raids changed the course of the war or battle? Not the fighter bomber ones, but the medium bomber missions."
Me :
"Without the 2nd Tactical Air Force and US 9th Air Force tactical bombing raids, Operation Overlord would have been a failure."
Syscom:
"I never claimed it wouldnt. On the contrary, the medium bomber campaign ensured victory and hastened the collapse of Nazi Germany."
So, you assault the tactical air force small raids as being useless. Yet, these raids combined with each other secured the victory of Overlord. To which you now agree. Correct? The battle that medium bomber raids won, was Overlord.
I am waiting. Although I requested the 9th AF B-26 raids, I would be interested in the 12th AF as well, I suppose. Despite the fact these raids were in North Africa and MTO, not ETO.
"Now tell me what small raids changed the course of the war or battle? Not the fighter bomber ones, but the medium bomber missions."
Me :
"Without the 2nd Tactical Air Force and US 9th Air Force tactical bombing raids, Operation Overlord would have been a failure."
Syscom:
"I never claimed it wouldnt. On the contrary, the medium bomber campaign ensured victory and hastened the collapse of Nazi Germany."
So, you assault the tactical air force small raids as being useless. Yet, these raids combined with each other secured the victory of Overlord. To which you now agree. Correct? The battle that medium bomber raids won, was Overlord.
I am waiting. Although I requested the 9th AF B-26 raids, I would be interested in the 12th AF as well, I suppose. Despite the fact these raids were in North Africa and MTO, not ETO.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
The 12 AF had the same doctrine as the 9th AF.
Same targets, pretty much the same number of bomb groups.
Of course you remember that several 12th AF groups ended up in France after operation dragoon. Or did you not know that.
Same targets, pretty much the same number of bomb groups.
Of course you remember that several 12th AF groups ended up in France after operation dragoon. Or did you not know that.
I think syscom has finally come to the conclusion that he is clueless at how warfare is won.
Les you hit the nail when you called him out on it.
pD you have been hitting the nail the whole time. Syscom just can not admit that he does not know something.
Les you hit the nail when you called him out on it.
pD you have been hitting the nail the whole time. Syscom just can not admit that he does not know something.
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Notice how sys didnt comment on pD's last post concerning Overlord???
Hmmmmmmmmmmm...
Hmmmmmmmmmmm...
syscom3
Pacific Historian
plan_D said:
Les, look closer, I responded to it already.
Tony Williams
Airman 1st Class
I really don't see what the argument is about. Nazi Germany was defeated by a wide range of different measures, none of which was decisive by itself but the cumulative effect did the job. These included the following, in the last couple of years of the war:
- naval and air anti-submarine efforts to keep the Atlantic clear enough to amass enough troops and supplies for Overlord
- Overlord itself and the campaign resulting from that
- the campaign in Italy stretching German resources
- close support by fighter bombers
- interdiction by medium bombers
- strategic destruction by heavy bombers
- and, above all, the overwhelming ground campaign by our Soviet Allies.
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum
- naval and air anti-submarine efforts to keep the Atlantic clear enough to amass enough troops and supplies for Overlord
- Overlord itself and the campaign resulting from that
- the campaign in Italy stretching German resources
- close support by fighter bombers
- interdiction by medium bombers
- strategic destruction by heavy bombers
- and, above all, the overwhelming ground campaign by our Soviet Allies.
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum
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