lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Agreed 100%.... Syscom will not admit he is wrong about any of this.... Its rather disturbing actually...
Tactical Strikes of World War II
- Thread starter plan_D
- Start date
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syscom3
Pacific Historian
FLYBOYJ said:
The 9th wanted any plane it could get. In this case they got a good plane that was the designed for a doctrine that was no longer valid. The A20 was a fine plane, it just didnt have a role for it.
Good for the 410th. Too bad they didnt have A26's as they could have done even more. And the 9th would have replaced its final A20 group with A26's had the war gone on for a bit longer. Think of that, 3 A20 groups to start and the 9th thought so highly of it, they converted 2 groups to A26's.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
lesofprimus said:
I look at the bottom line. It was among the first to be replaced by A26's.
If the A20's were so effective, why didnt the 9th and 12th relace their b26's first?
syscom3
Pacific Historian
k9kiwi said:
I will tomorrow. Im going to bed. (that is seven words and 25 letters)
- Thread starter
- #206
"And the Mosquito is more a fighter bomber than a light attack bomber. And all plan_D has proven is a few mosquito's flew to Berlin, (at night no doubt) but never did they go in a mass raid on a worthwhile tactical target east of the Rhine. (Sorry Plan_D, coastal targets dont cut it, it has to be welll within german borders)."
How is a Mosquito with no guns a fighter-bomber?
You stated that no medium bomber or light bomber raided east of the Rhine before late 1944. The Mosquito did. You never mentioned what targets were supposed to be attacked. And since I mentioned the Mosquito was the first to raid Berlin by daylight, it wasn't always at night. And Berlin couldn't be much further into German borders!
So, syscom, from the original statement of no medium or light bombers crossed the Rhine before late 1944 it has changed to no medium or light bombers crossed between 1941 - 1943 by daylight, the Mosquito doesn't count, and nor does Berlin or coastal targets.
Basically everyone, when syscom said no light or medium bombers crossed the Rhine before late 1944 he meant: "No US 9th Air Force A-20s or B-26s bombed Nurnberg on 19th August, 1943" And this proves his point that A-20s were useless.
How is a Mosquito with no guns a fighter-bomber?
You stated that no medium bomber or light bomber raided east of the Rhine before late 1944. The Mosquito did. You never mentioned what targets were supposed to be attacked. And since I mentioned the Mosquito was the first to raid Berlin by daylight, it wasn't always at night. And Berlin couldn't be much further into German borders!
So, syscom, from the original statement of no medium or light bombers crossed the Rhine before late 1944 it has changed to no medium or light bombers crossed between 1941 - 1943 by daylight, the Mosquito doesn't count, and nor does Berlin or coastal targets.
Basically everyone, when syscom said no light or medium bombers crossed the Rhine before late 1944 he meant: "No US 9th Air Force A-20s or B-26s bombed Nurnberg on 19th August, 1943" And this proves his point that A-20s were useless.
syscom3 said:
syscom3 said:
Its not worth argueing over with you anymore anyhow.
syscom3 said:
Dont know, I dont have any other info on that.
Basically what I am saying is this:
There are more to tactical bombing than bombing airfields and rail yards. Tactical bombing includes attacking strategic targets such as damns, docks, tank formations, bunkers, etc....
Tactical bombing by light bombers and medium bombers successfully helped win the war. No matter how you put it and no matter how much you disagree, you are wrong.
syscom3 said:
And neither do you, atleast you have not shown any in this thread.
syscom3 said:
Except in this one.
Thats okay I am tired of looking up facts that you just discredit because they disprove your ideas.
plan_D said:
Yeap I gave him one source. He obviously did not read it as most things that others post. The raid by the mosquitos that I posted to Berlin for the Nazi party rally was during a Nazi party rally during the day and was timed for when Goering was to give his speech.
Basically syscom knows he is wrong. He has no idea what tactical warfare is. He has been proven wrong on all accounts by everyone in this thread but he will not waiver. I will give him that, he is as stubborn as an ox!
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
And if they flew B-29s that would of been better?!?!syscom3 said:
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Because the the A-26 was earmarked to first replace A-20, not only by the AAF, but the manufacturer, that was a selling point of the A-26 which Douglas supported.syscom3 said:
No ones denying the A-26 was a better aircraft than the A-20. I think whats missing here is your understanding of the role of a light bomber in a tactical role.
"Ninth Air Force began official operations in November 1942, when, at the height of the campaign to defend Egypt and the Suez Canal, it was decided to consolidate all of the aircraft in theatre under one command. Equipped with P-40s, B-17s and B-24s, the new air forces supported allied operations in North Africa, Sicily, and Italy before relocating to England. Reactivating in England in October 1943, 9th Air Force took over medium bomber units from 8th Air Force and added P-38, P-47 and troop carrier groups. On D-Day, June 6, 1944, 9th Air Force provided tactical air support for the Normandy landings, flying some 3,500 aircraft. At this time, 9th Air Force was the largest tactical air force ever assembled.
Providing air cover for the advance of the Third Army sweep through France into Germany, one of its key missions was the defense of allied forces during the Battle of the Bulge. During this time, 9th Air Force flew 5,291 sorties to help blunt the German attack besieging the town of Bastogne."
Ninth Air Force
Here some more to chew on....
"History
Constituted as 409th Bombardment Group (Light) on 1 Jun 1943 and activated the same day. Used A-20's in preparing for duty overseas. Moved to England, Feb-Mar 1944, and assigned to Ninth AF. Bombed coastal defenses, V-weapon sites, airdromes, and other targets in France, Apr-Jun 1944, in preparation for the invasion of Normandy. Supported ground forces during the Normandy campaign by hitting gun batteries, rail lines, bridges, communications, and other objectives. During Jul 1944, aided the Allied offensive at Caen and the breakthrough at St Lo with attacks on enemy troops, flak positions, fortified villages, and supply dumps. Supported Third Army's advance toward Germany, Aug-Nov 1944, operating from bases in France beginning in Sep. Converted to A-26 aircraft in Dec and participated in the Battle of the Bulge (Dec 1944-Jan 1945) by attacking lines of communication and supply. Continued to operate against targets in Germany until May 1945. Flew last mission on 3 May, attacking an ammunition dump in Czechoslovakia. Returned to the US, Jun-Aug 1945. Inactivated on 7 Nov 1945.
History
Constituted as 410th Bombardment Group (Light) on 16 Jun 1943. Activated on 1 Jul 1943. Trained with A-20's. Moved to England, Mar-Apr 1944, and assigned to Ninth AF. Entered combat in May 1944 and helped to prepare for the invasion of Normandy by assaulting coastal defenses, airfields, and V-weapon sites in France, and marshalling yards in France and Belgium. Supported the invasion in Jun by bombing gun positions and railway choke points. Assisted ground forces at Caen and St Lo in Jul and at Brest in Aug and Sep by attacking bridges, vehicles, fuel and ammunition dumps, and rail lines. Moved to France in Sep, and through mid-Dec struck defended villages, railroad bridges and overpasses, marshalling yards, military camps, and communications centers to support the Allied assault on the Siegfried Line. Participated in the Battle of the Bulge, Dec 1944-Jan 1945, by pounding marshalling yards, railheads, bridges, and vehicles in the battle area. Received a DUC for the effectiveness of its bombing in the Ardennes, 23-25 Dec 1944, when the group made numerous attacks on enemy lines of communications. Flew several night missions in Feb 1945, using B-26's as flare planes, an A-26 for target marking, and A-20's to bomb the objectives. Continued to fly support and interdictory missions, aiding the drive across the Rhine and into Germany, Feb-Apr 1945. Converted to A-26 aircraft, but the war ended before the group was ready to fly them in combat. Returned to the US, Jun-Aug 1945. Inactivated on 7 Nov 1945."
Army Air Forces:410th*Bombardment (Light)
BTW as a reminder, the 410th BG was one of most effectives bomb groups in the whole ETO AAF, again I quote...
"In April 1945 the 410th record was the best ever. A total of 65 superior or excellent bombing ratings were attained. Another first was for this unit was that it was the only combat Bomb group in the USAAF during WWII, fully trained, equipped with modified aircraft,and manned to fly both day and night missions, using precision bombing techniques. Another remarkable record is that of 9,648 combat sorties flown, only 185 mechanical failures occurred."
They has a 45% target hit rate - a tribute to the men AND THE AIRCRAFT! Again far from ineffective....
- Thread starter
- #214
Crews in the 2nd TAF enjoyed flying the Boston because it handled well, and was faster than the Mitchell. It was a perfect plane for the RAFs tactics of individually picking out targets in the area. The Boston was often used like a dive bomber, or fighter-bomber at target.
No Way pD! That can not be true or work because light and medium bombers were 100% worthless in WW2!!!!!!!!!!!
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
More for the fire....
"The 9th AF with medium and light bombers and fighters conducted tactical bombing against the enemies war machine: Combat troops, acft, tanks, guns, rail, and road transportation, airfields, fuel and ordnance dumps, etc.
The 9th AF was actiivated in 1942 in North Africa and reformed in UK in OCT. 1943. Its mission was given 3 priorities:
1-- To gain and maintain air superiorty.
2--To disrupt enemy lines of Transportation and communication.
3--To destroy enemy troops and material in cooperation with ground forces.
The 9th AF was also charged with providing troop carrier, recon and photo acft as well as air defense protection of all areas except forward battle lines.
Last but not least the 9th AF combat engineers constructed or rehabilitated air- fields required in both rear and forward areas.
The command structure to accomplish this awesome task was:
11 grps. of B-26, A-20, A-26 bombers--Each grp. had approx. 70 acft.
18 grps. of P-47, P-38 and P-51 fighters
2 grps. of F-5, F-6 recon acft.
14 grps. of C-47, C-46 troop carrier supply acft.along with Horsa gliders.
4 Regiments of Combat Engineers.
5 AAA Air Defense Battalions plus airwarning groups.
To give you a perspective on the size of the 9th AF--over 30,000 acft. were dispatched during the month of June 1944. On D-DAY over 3,000 acft. dropped almost 2 million pds. of bombs on enemy targets.
Thru-out the war the 9th averaged over 2,000 sorties or single acft. strikes per day."
"The 9th AF with medium and light bombers and fighters conducted tactical bombing against the enemies war machine: Combat troops, acft, tanks, guns, rail, and road transportation, airfields, fuel and ordnance dumps, etc.
The 9th AF was actiivated in 1942 in North Africa and reformed in UK in OCT. 1943. Its mission was given 3 priorities:
1-- To gain and maintain air superiorty.
2--To disrupt enemy lines of Transportation and communication.
3--To destroy enemy troops and material in cooperation with ground forces.
The 9th AF was also charged with providing troop carrier, recon and photo acft as well as air defense protection of all areas except forward battle lines.
Last but not least the 9th AF combat engineers constructed or rehabilitated air- fields required in both rear and forward areas.
The command structure to accomplish this awesome task was:
11 grps. of B-26, A-20, A-26 bombers--Each grp. had approx. 70 acft.
18 grps. of P-47, P-38 and P-51 fighters
2 grps. of F-5, F-6 recon acft.
14 grps. of C-47, C-46 troop carrier supply acft.along with Horsa gliders.
4 Regiments of Combat Engineers.
5 AAA Air Defense Battalions plus airwarning groups.
To give you a perspective on the size of the 9th AF--over 30,000 acft. were dispatched during the month of June 1944. On D-DAY over 3,000 acft. dropped almost 2 million pds. of bombs on enemy targets.
Thru-out the war the 9th averaged over 2,000 sorties or single acft. strikes per day."
syscom3
Pacific Historian
FLYBOYJ said:And if they flew B-29s that would of been better?!?!
No. The B29 was a strategic bomber. Too many resources would have been expended to fly them to bomb low value targets.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
FLYBOYJ said:
All that proves is they flew A20's, bombed their targets. And they could have been even more effective by using B26's (or B25's)
syscom3
Pacific Historian
FLYBOYJ said:
I never said the 9th AF was useless. Where did you get that idea?
The 9th could have converted those three A20 groups to B26's, or one of the fighter bombers, and been far better than what the A20's were.
When the decision to convert to A26's was made, the 9th and 12th looked at what airplaneswere underperforming and the light bombers were it.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
I never said you said that. We're talkng A-20 here....syscom3 said:
That's you're opinion. Based on the numbers and data shown the B-26 did not have the bombing accuracy or the reliability of the A-20.syscom3 said:
Again, your opinion and it seems you have nothing to back it up with. Show us documentation that the 9th AF was dis-satisfied with the A-20!!! I've provided data to show the opposite. The only reason why the A-20 was being replaced was Douglas had the A-26 planned as an A-20 replacement in 1941 and during it's whole development that was its target. There in no denying the fact that the A-26 was a better aircraft, it was designed to perform better than the A-20 from the outset! You're ignoring the fact that based on it's 9th AF combat record the A-20 was far from "underperforming" and with the 410BG it sported the most accurate bombing ability in the whole 9th AF and possibly in the whole USAAF ETO!!! Even as the 9th AF were getting A-26s operational I shown that operationally they used all 3 for specific requirements.syscom3 said:
Again you've shown nothing to indicate that operationally the A-20 was "underperforming," in fact the opposite is turning out to be the truth!!!
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