Taking the Hs 123 back in production during WW2 ?

[davebender]

Fuselage mounted weapons are also more accurate and some mounts (i.e. Me-110 3cm Mk 101 cannon) allow the rear gunner to clear weapon jams.

If I were running RLM.....
Ju-87 specifications would have required the pilot to be seated relatively high, similiar to the proposed Ju-187. The pilot has superior visibility but the primary purpose would be to allow a heavy cannon such as the 3cm Mk 101 to fit beneath aircrew seats and fire through the prop.

A normal bomb carrying Ju-87 would probably have a lightweight 2cm MG FF cannon for self defense firing through the hub. But any Ju-87 could be field converted to a tank killer by omitting the 500+ kg bomb and mounting a heavy hub cannon.

 

[Civettone]

This has been a while but I need to correct some people here...

- The Hs 123 was a very simple aircraft, which made it so reliable in service. The same reasons apply for making it easy to produce. No advanced production lines were needed. The Fw 189C was more expensive than the Hs 129C, which makes me believe that the Fw 189A was - at least - not an extraordinary cheap aircraft. As such the Fw 189 will definitely have been more difficult to produce than the Hs 123.
- The Hs 129 was a superior aircraft to the Fw 189C. Not only because it was cheaper but also because the Fw 189C was even worse to fly than the Hs 129. The Hs 129 has a bad reputation as people believe that its engines were unreliable and underpowered. Neither of the two is true. It is one of those horrible stories which keep lingering on throughout history, kinda like the Me 163 incinerating pilots in their seats ... The Hs 129 was the best armoured aircraft of WW2, it had reliable engines. Its only vice was that it was difficult to fly because of the high forces on the stick. The Hs 129 was going to get improved GR 14M engines with bigger power. The Hs 129C with these engines or Isotta Frasschini Delta engines was going to get a double MK 103 installation or a bombload of a 1000 kg.
- The Do 17 was a great bomber, and in Croatian colours, a great attack aircraft. But it was hardly armoured and would have been a big slow and easy target for dedicated Flak like on the Russian front.
- The Hs 123C - with the BMW 132K, close to 1000 hp - was going to get a cockpit hood, two extra wing MG's and a total bombload of 500 kg.

 

[Shortround6]

I agree with much of what you say.

"The Hs 129 has a bad reputation as people believe that its engines were unreliable and underpowered. Neither of the two is true. It is one of those horrible stories... The Hs 129 was the best armoured aircraft of WW2, it had reliable engines."

I think part of this story is from it's use in North Africa. ANYBODY'S aircraft in NA were unreliable and short lived without good air filters. Lack of spare engines and parts ( no other aircraft in the theater used the engine?) meant that serviceability would be low, contributing to the story?
However power was, shall we say, marginal? 1400hp for a 10,500-11,500lb twin engine plane is not particularly good. It is better than than the Blenheim V but not as good as the Blenheim IV. Adding high drag large gun pods underneath didn't help. the 30mm pod might not be too bad but the "famous" or infamous Bordkanone BK 7,5 cannon ( it's reputation far exceeds it's actual use) was pushing things over the top.
Worn engines producing less than book power ( and I don't doubt there was some sabotage) can contribute to the story.
Many aircraft acquired reputations based of a relatively few incidences, for good or bad.

For a low altitude gun armed "strike" aircraft a number of things come into play that are not shown by a short list of performance numbers. How fast an aircraft responds to the controls is VERY important, both for aiming and avoiding unintentional contact with the ground. Good throttle response is helpful. Not in the sense of absolute performance numbers but in the sense that when the pilot does something the plane responds right NOW! with no hesitation or delay.

 

[davebender]

Ju-87D.
1,340 hp.
Good armor protection.
1,000 kg normal bomb load. Or equivalent weight in underwing cannon pods.
Rear gunner provides some self defense.
Considered an excellent gun platform.

Why was the Ju-87D so good despite having no more total power then a Hs-129?

 

[Shortround6]

Good at what?

Dive bombing? not the same thing is it?

Night raiding?

Gun ship?
Got any performance figures for the Ju-87G-1 that you like to share? It has been described as "extremely slow and unwieldly". By the Autumn of 1944 only one Gruppe was still using the Ju-87 on daylight operations. hardly a ringing endorsement of it's handling qualities or performance.

 

[Civettone]

The handling of the Ju 87 deteroriated due to the increase in armour. Yet, the Ju 87 prototype was praised for its good handling. As such, I conclude that the Ju 87D handling was probably still good enough. Of course the Ju 87 is extremely slow and vulnerable compared to the Fw 190F, but I guess it's no less than the celebrated Ilyushin Il-2.

So it seems to me that 1945 was no different than 1940: the Stuka was extremely vulnerable when engaged by enemy fighters. The only difference is that in 1945 those were much more numerous. But this says more about that type of aircraft. All dedicated ground attack aircraft and bombers were vulnerable when not properly escorted by fighters.

But what is also striking is that the vast majority of Ju 87s and Hs 129s on the Eastern front were lost to enemy ground fire, and relatively few fell a victim to enemy fighter planes. Rudel was able to fly his Ju 87Gs till the end of the war.

Kris

 

[Civettone]

One more element I would like to add to the discussion is the possible use of Panzerblitz rockets for the Hs 123. Even though the Hs 123 would normally be limited to night harassment and strafing missions in low activity theaters, the possible use of Panzerblitz rockets would turn the Hs 123 overnight into a dangerous tank hunter! Of course it would still be vulnerable to dedicated Flak but a mass use of Hs 123 each with a volley of several spin stabililized AT-rockets would inevitably lead to serious enemy tank losses, disrespectful of the number of Hs 123 losses.

Kris