Shortround6
Major General
Why don't you tell that to the officers who claimed that the Hs 123 could as justification for wanting more?
Taking the Hs 123 back in production during WW2 ?
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Perhaps production of Hs 123 should continiue in 1940. Empty weight 1500kgr Empty weight Fw 190 3200kgr Given the simpler consruction of the Hs 123 and the simpler equipment cost should be 1/3 to 1/4 of a Fw190 F .If so then
Use Bramo 323C/D of 1000ps and similar weight with Bmw 132. (If available)
Use a canopy for less drug and -basically- for fewer sick pilots
Mass produce it if factories unsuitable for main battle types could be used
Missions
1) Anti partisan missions in occupeid Europe and rear areas on the eastern front
2) Night attacks
3) Front line surveillance. Eastern front was huge. Front lines were not continiues. Frequently, russians penetrated through gaps
4) Army cooperation and support on quite sectors. Would be a nice aircraft to complete Fieseler Storch and Fw 189 in this role
5) Delivery of supplyies on isolated units using 500 kgr containers
6) Normal CAS mission on sectors with german fighter presence . Attacks only in front lines, if caught unprotected, form a tight defensive cycle and try to cross german lines and reach protection from german flak . Russians usually did not continiue pursuit behine german lines anyway. Casualties to fighters -of course- would be inevitable. I think could operate in this role until late 43 or early 44
Use Bramo 323C/D of 1000ps and similar weight with Bmw 132. (If available)
Use a canopy for less drug and -basically- for fewer sick pilots
Mass produce it if factories unsuitable for main battle types could be used
Missions
1) Anti partisan missions in occupeid Europe and rear areas on the eastern front
2) Night attacks
3) Front line surveillance. Eastern front was huge. Front lines were not continiues. Frequently, russians penetrated through gaps
4) Army cooperation and support on quite sectors. Would be a nice aircraft to complete Fieseler Storch and Fw 189 in this role
5) Delivery of supplyies on isolated units using 500 kgr containers
6) Normal CAS mission on sectors with german fighter presence . Attacks only in front lines, if caught unprotected, form a tight defensive cycle and try to cross german lines and reach protection from german flak . Russians usually did not continiue pursuit behine german lines anyway. Casualties to fighters -of course- would be inevitable. I think could operate in this role until late 43 or early 44
davebender
1st Lieutenant
What's the point if a Hs123 carries a smaller payload then the Fw-189 army liason aircraft?
a) Hs 123 is smaller , 1000 kgr lighter and conventional= cheaper to built = more could be built
b) requires only ONE crew
c) the historical aircraft could carry up to 450kgr payload
d) Fw 189 was more appopriate for specialized missions as artillery spotting ,photo reconaissance etc and was wasted in missions like partisans hunting or night attacks
e) a smaller target
f ) since production lines already existed since 1938 why destroy them and not take advantage of them? In war times destroying production lines of usefull aircrafts is not very smart. At least could transef the tools to Hungary
g) Hs 123 could not replace Fw 189 , could serve along it
davebender
1st Lieutenant
Not necessarily. Many newer German weapons designed for low cost mass production such as the V1 cruise missile, Jumo 004B jet engine, StuG44 assault rifle, MG42 machinegun and Me-109 fighter aircraft were dirt cheap.
Any plane requires a pilot, and putting a pilot into a lesser plane only gets to kill it easily. Germany was short of the pilots more than it was short of the planes. Hs-123 was not featuring a rear gunner - not that one would've killed much of the fighters, but can provide the pilot with a warning of incoming danger towards incoming to their slow plane.
Fw-187 seems like a vastly better choice than Hs-123 for ground support.
Fw-187 seems like a vastly better choice than Hs-123 for ground support.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
Not as historically designed.
A Fw-187 with DB601E engines would be a 400+ mph aircraft with a wing loading of about 35lbs / sq foot and minimal armor protection. Perfect for engaging enemy aircraft at 20,000 feet but the wrong tool for engaging enemy bunkers or tanks from an altitude of 200 meters.
Wing Loading (approximate).
19.5 lbs / sq ft. Hs-123A.
21 lbs / sq ft. Fw-189A.
28 lbs / sq ft. Ju-87B.
37 lbs / sq ft. Hs-129B.
37.5 lbs / sq ft. Ju-87D.
The Hs-129 and Ju-87 were Germany's two most successful CAS aircraft. Fully loaded aircraft with generous armor protection had a wing loading of about 37 lbs / sq foot. The Fw-187 had a similiar wing loading in fighter configuration. Add heavy cannon, bombs and significant pilot armor and the Fw-187 would be incapable of the low speed maneuverability essential for a CAS aircraft.
It might be possible to give the Fw-187 CAS variant a different wing with more surface area. The new wing must also be strong enough for a 250kg hardpoint.
A Fw-187 with DB601E engines would be a 400+ mph aircraft with a wing loading of about 35lbs / sq foot and minimal armor protection. Perfect for engaging enemy aircraft at 20,000 feet but the wrong tool for engaging enemy bunkers or tanks from an altitude of 200 meters.
Wing Loading (approximate).
19.5 lbs / sq ft. Hs-123A.
21 lbs / sq ft. Fw-189A.
28 lbs / sq ft. Ju-87B.
37 lbs / sq ft. Hs-129B.
37.5 lbs / sq ft. Ju-87D.
The Hs-129 and Ju-87 were Germany's two most successful CAS aircraft. Fully loaded aircraft with generous armor protection had a wing loading of about 37 lbs / sq foot. The Fw-187 had a similiar wing loading in fighter configuration. Add heavy cannon, bombs and significant pilot armor and the Fw-187 would be incapable of the low speed maneuverability essential for a CAS aircraft.
It might be possible to give the Fw-187 CAS variant a different wing with more surface area. The new wing must also be strong enough for a 250kg hardpoint.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
If the Luftwaffe could do things over I think they would have produced a CAS variant of the Fw-189 rather then the Hs-129. The Hs-129 is one of those aircraft that looked better on paper then in actual combat. Pilot visibility was poor and I think they went overboard with armor to the extent that the aircraft was underpowered even with 700 hp engines.
Gnome-Rhône radial aircraft engines were very popular in Europe during the 1930s. Nations such as Hungary, Yugoslavia and Romania produced copies under license. So I don't see why Germany would have trouble acquiring these engines if they want something more powerful then the As410 / As411 for a CAS aircraft.
Gnome-Rhône radial aircraft engines were very popular in Europe during the 1930s. Nations such as Hungary, Yugoslavia and Romania produced copies under license. So I don't see why Germany would have trouble acquiring these engines if they want something more powerful then the As410 / As411 for a CAS aircraft.
Shortround6
Major General
The CAS version of the Fw 189 was armored like the Hs 129 had had the same or worse poor vision. It had the Argus engines and was, no surprise, considered under powered. Gnome-Rhône engines about a generation behind "good" radials like the R-1830. Sort of like the Hispano V-12. light in weight but low powered for displacement with limited scope for development without a major redesign. The number/letter designation is a bit confusing. There were 14K, 14M, 14N and 14R. All 14 cylinder engines but the K, N, R were all 38.7 liter engines compared to the 19 liter M. Ks and Ns used different cylinders although kept the same bore and stroke. The R added a center bearing which allowed for both higher rpm and higher pressures in the cylinders. Most of the license engines were the older K series. Quite useful to countries that had no real aviation industry of their own giving them a good starting point (Russian M-88 started as a licensed 14K). However in actual bulk the 14K,N and R were the size of a Hercules even if lighter.
The Gnome-Rhône factories managed to deliver about 1/3 of the number of engines the Germans estimated they could during the war years putting a serious crimp in German engine production plans.
The Gnome-Rhône factories managed to deliver about 1/3 of the number of engines the Germans estimated they could during the war years putting a serious crimp in German engine production plans.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
Perhaps so but it didn't need to happen that way.
Like most army liason aircraft the normal Fw-189 had excellent pilot vision. Focke Wulf engineers need to retain most of that vision when they design the CAS aircraft center fuselage. With more development I am confident this problem can be overcome.
Armor can be adjusted until they get a good balance between weight and pilot protection.
Manfred Weiss of Hungary made several radial engines which might have worked ILO the As410 / As411.
.....Bristol Jupiter VI 420hp radial
.....Gnome-Rhône 9K 520hp radial
.....Gnome-Rhône 14K 870 to 910 hp radial.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
The He-112B was produced in small numbers and apparently performed well for ground attack. The relatively low wing loading of only 27 lbs / sq foot undoubtedly contributed to the CAS success.
Manfred-Weiss was working on a locally produced He-112 variant powered by a licensed version of the 1,000 hp Gnome-Rhone radial engine. The project was cancelled after one prototype was built. I suspect Hungary lacked resources to see the project through to completion.
Germany had the resources to do what Hungary couldn't - convert the He-112 into a radial engine CAS aircraft.
- BMW132 or Bramo 323 radial engine producing 950 to 1,200 hp.
- 250 kg hardpoint under each wing. Can carry cannon pod ILO bomb.
- Some pilot armor but not so much the aircraft is underpowered.
. He-112B had a bubble canopy for good visibility.
With these changes the He-112 would probably have a max speed around 300 mph. Which is pretty good for a WWII era CAS aircraft. The most important thing is to keep wing loading below 35 lbs / sq ft so the aircraft has good low speed maneuverability.
Manfred-Weiss was working on a locally produced He-112 variant powered by a licensed version of the 1,000 hp Gnome-Rhone radial engine. The project was cancelled after one prototype was built. I suspect Hungary lacked resources to see the project through to completion.
Germany had the resources to do what Hungary couldn't - convert the He-112 into a radial engine CAS aircraft.
- BMW132 or Bramo 323 radial engine producing 950 to 1,200 hp.
- 250 kg hardpoint under each wing. Can carry cannon pod ILO bomb.
- Some pilot armor but not so much the aircraft is underpowered.
. He-112B had a bubble canopy for good visibility.
With these changes the He-112 would probably have a max speed around 300 mph. Which is pretty good for a WWII era CAS aircraft. The most important thing is to keep wing loading below 35 lbs / sq ft so the aircraft has good low speed maneuverability.
Shortround6
Major General
Good vision came from large areas of transparent panels. Impossible to bullet proof using existing technology without an unacceptable increase in weight. The Fw 189C used a much smaller center nacelle/fuselage with just two crew members to cut down the area needed to be armored. Transparent sections were held to a minimum and they over did it. Vision was like trying to fly a plane looking out a tank drivers vision slots. Larger transparent areas could have been provided at increased cost and weight. Google for pictures to see what they were working with.
Once again you have selected engines that are non-starters. The Bristol Jupiter And it's Gnome-Rhone clone were engines from the 1920s. They were the size and close to the weight of a Bristol Pegasus which means that they are actually slightly larger in diameter than either a BMW 132 or Bramo 323 and the only reason they are cheaper to make is that they might not use some of the latest alloys. In fact some of the construction details might make them more ex waive to make. The 14K is a 38.7 liter engine that weighs 1100-1200lbs and is 13-14 inches larger in diameter than the 14M engine used on the HS 129.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
Focke-Wulf Fw 189 Uhu (Eagle Owl)
Bottom of the fuselage gets the same 3cm Mk101 cannon installation that was designed for the Me-110. Later this can be upgraded to the more powerful 3.7cm cannon if desired.
Real world Ju-87Gs were escorted by Ju-87Ds. Bomb carrying Ju-87s suppressed enemy light flak before cannon carrying Ju-87s went to work on enemy vehicles. With 1,900 hp I think we can combine both features on a single aircraft.
Germany was the world leader in cluster bomb technology. Put an AB 250 cluster munition container under each wing. They get dropped on enemy flak positions first. Then the Fw-189G can employ it's cannon against enemy vehicles.
That pretty well makes my mind up for a German CAS aircraft. If the Fw-189 airframe can handle 950 hp engines then it gets the mission. However I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Argus to deliver the As402. 1937 Germany already has plenty of inexpensive and reliable BMW132 radial engines. Now it's just a matter of getting the design right. 1,900 total hp should provide a decent payload.
Bottom of the fuselage gets the same 3cm Mk101 cannon installation that was designed for the Me-110. Later this can be upgraded to the more powerful 3.7cm cannon if desired.
Real world Ju-87Gs were escorted by Ju-87Ds. Bomb carrying Ju-87s suppressed enemy light flak before cannon carrying Ju-87s went to work on enemy vehicles. With 1,900 hp I think we can combine both features on a single aircraft.
Germany was the world leader in cluster bomb technology. Put an AB 250 cluster munition container under each wing. They get dropped on enemy flak positions first. Then the Fw-189G can employ it's cannon against enemy vehicles.
Hmm, the Bf-110 with BMW-801 seem like a good combination, at least on paper. A German Beaufighter, but faster? A tough game at least for Soviet fighters.
Alas, we need a surplus of 801s to have it that way. Another nod for Fw-190 + DB-603?
Alas, we need a surplus of 801s to have it that way. Another nod for Fw-190 + DB-603?
davebender
1st Lieutenant
155,800 RM. 1941 price for Me-110 without engines.
130,000 RM. early 1942 price for two BMW801 engines.
.....285,800 RM total price for one Me-110 powered by unreliable 1,539 hp BMW801a engines.
Capable but such an aircraft would be too expensive. Only the USA paid that much for aircraft during WWII.
Two Ju-87s complete with reliable Jumo 211 engines cost about 262,000 RM during early 1941.
The 960 hp BMW 132 was one of the least expensive aircraft engines. 12,400 RM per engine during 1941 and it's about 10 times as reliable as early model BMW801 engines. I suspect you could mass produce two Fw-189Gs complete with engines for the price of a single Me-110 powered by unreliable BMW801 engines.
130,000 RM. early 1942 price for two BMW801 engines.
.....285,800 RM total price for one Me-110 powered by unreliable 1,539 hp BMW801a engines.
Capable but such an aircraft would be too expensive. Only the USA paid that much for aircraft during WWII.
Two Ju-87s complete with reliable Jumo 211 engines cost about 262,000 RM during early 1941.
The 960 hp BMW 132 was one of the least expensive aircraft engines. 12,400 RM per engine during 1941 and it's about 10 times as reliable as early model BMW801 engines. I suspect you could mass produce two Fw-189Gs complete with engines for the price of a single Me-110 powered by unreliable BMW801 engines.
That is no way to do the math.
For 2 millions, you have 7 'Bf-110Rs', or 15 Ju-87s. You need 14 crew for Bf, and, 30 for Ju-87. The Bf can operate unescorted, unlike the Ju, so we toss in a staffel of 109s, costing us another 670 thousands. Plus 12 pilots, so we are at 14 vs. 42. For a same assigment, we will consume maybe 50% more fuel (for 7 110s, vs. 27 of Stukas and 109s). Sure enough, where Bf-110 can go, neither Stuka nor 109 can follow - hence we need to base them well within enemy's reach. The 110'R' can carry bombs AND a 30-37mm cannon in the same time, unlike the Ju-87.
After the bombing is done, 110 can increase power and vanish, not so for Ju-87. Escorts can help, but not if the enemy has the numerical superiority. So despite more people trained and fuel spent (for Ju-87 option), would the result show anything for it?
In case we are operating vs. Western opposition, Stuka is no-go, unlike a Bf-110 + BMW.
US was building far more expensive thins than twin engined bombers, and IIRC you are the fan of many of German twin engined planes anyway. By late 1943, the BMW is a reliable machine, just when it's needed. Further, Germany was lacking mostly fuel and pilots, then the war material.
For 2 millions, you have 7 'Bf-110Rs', or 15 Ju-87s. You need 14 crew for Bf, and, 30 for Ju-87. The Bf can operate unescorted, unlike the Ju, so we toss in a staffel of 109s, costing us another 670 thousands. Plus 12 pilots, so we are at 14 vs. 42. For a same assigment, we will consume maybe 50% more fuel (for 7 110s, vs. 27 of Stukas and 109s). Sure enough, where Bf-110 can go, neither Stuka nor 109 can follow - hence we need to base them well within enemy's reach. The 110'R' can carry bombs AND a 30-37mm cannon in the same time, unlike the Ju-87.
After the bombing is done, 110 can increase power and vanish, not so for Ju-87. Escorts can help, but not if the enemy has the numerical superiority. So despite more people trained and fuel spent (for Ju-87 option), would the result show anything for it?
In case we are operating vs. Western opposition, Stuka is no-go, unlike a Bf-110 + BMW.
US was building far more expensive thins than twin engined bombers, and IIRC you are the fan of many of German twin engined planes anyway. By late 1943, the BMW is a reliable machine, just when it's needed. Further, Germany was lacking mostly fuel and pilots, then the war material.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
The CAS aircraft specification which eventually produced the Hs-129 dates to 1937. The BMW801 engine wasn't even a gleam in Goering's eye at that time. Thanks to RLMs October 1935 decision to cut Genshagen factory funding from 50 million RM to 20 million RM Germany didn't have enough DB601 engines either. So if additional Me-110 airframes are built for the CAS role they must be powered by Jumo 211 or BMW 132 engines.
The Fw-189 specification dates to 1937 and BMW 132 engines have been in production since 1933 or 1934. What could be more sensible then producing a CAS variant of the Fw-189 powered by BMW132 engines? You get the cost benefits of mass production, which Goering considered so important when establishing Ju-88 light bomber production during 1938.
The Fw-189 specification dates to 1937 and BMW 132 engines have been in production since 1933 or 1934. What could be more sensible then producing a CAS variant of the Fw-189 powered by BMW132 engines? You get the cost benefits of mass production, which Goering considered so important when establishing Ju-88 light bomber production during 1938.
