TBD Devastators at the Battle of Midway

[SaparotRob]

Golly, then who was that nice retired USMC LTC type naval aviator I once knew? Lloyd Childers recovered from his wounds and went off to flight training at Pensacola. He earned his wings and accepted a commission in the USMC and served for more than 25 more years. He commanded HMM-361, a helicopter squadron, in Vietnam. After his Marine Corps service he earned a PhD and had a second career as a college administrator. He passed in 2015. Decorations: 3 DFC, 1 LM, 1 PH, 14 AM.

Your source, Nesmith, must be referring to Robert B Brazier, ARM2c who was the radio-gunner in the TBD flown by Wilhelm G Esders, CAP. The Esders/Brazier TBD was the other TBD which ditched on the way back to Yorktown. Brazier had be hit by 20mm rounds. Esders got him out of the cockpit and into their raft, but he bled out before a destroyer could pick them up.

Also when both Yorktown TBDs ditched, Yorktown had not yet been bombed. They were sighted in the water by by crew of several of the returning SBDs. The returning VB-3 was warned off from attempting to land due to the approaching Japanese dive bombers. Not bothering to drag out my copy of No Higher Honor, if Nesmith claims that Corl and Childers had to ditch because any landing was foiled by bomb damage to Yorktown and/or Childers succumbed to his wounds . . . well, to quote my favorite Midway source, "The book is wrong."

Is there a book or two you could recommend on the subject not quite so factually challenged?

 

[R Leonard]

Sure -

"A Glorious Page in our History" - The Battle of Midway 4-6 June 1942, Cressman, Ewing, Tillman, Horan, Reynolds, Cohen, Pictorial Histories Publishing Company, 1990, ISBN 0-929521-40-4. My edition is the 1998 printing. Robert Cressman worked, maybe still does, at the US Naval Historical Command; the late Steve Ewing was Director at Patriots Point where CV-10 is parked and the author of biographies of Jimmie Thach and Jimmy Flatley, and with John Lundstrom Butch O'Hare (all of which I recommend, generally); Barrett Tillman, whom I've known, easily, for 45 years is a noted WW2 aviation author with books on the SBD, F6F, F4U, TBF among others; likewise in terms of length of acquaintance, is Mark Horan who probably interviewed more pilots serving at Midway than anyone else ; Clark Reynolds was a professor of history and wrote, amongst other WW2 naval subjects, the classic, The Fast Carriers; Stan Cohen is an authority on WW2 in Alaska.

and though primarily pointed at fighter operations
The First Team - Pacific Naval Air Combat from Pearl Harbor to Midway, John Lundstrom, US Naval Institute Press, 1984, ISBN 0-87021-189-7. Known John for almost 50 years, first met when I came home from college on break and there he was interviewing my father, I believe for his The First South Pacific Campaign book. John also wrote The First Team and the Guadalcanal Campaign - Naval Fighter Combat from August to November 1942.

And for a more Japanese directed view
Shattered Sword - The Untold Story of the Battle of Midway, Jonathan Parshall andAnthony Tully, Potomac Books, 2005, ISBN 1-57488-930-0. Jon and Tony present the battle from the Japanese side using extensive research into Japanese records.

These are the ones I would recommend. There are others more recent which are okay reads, but I don't see quite the detail and certainly nothing really new, or at least that I hadn't seen before and probably in one of the three above.

 

[Greg Boeser]

So what was the serial number of Collins' B-26B, then? The other three are ID'ed but not his.

 

[SaparotRob]

Sure -

"A Glorious Page in our History" - The Battle of Midway 4-6 June 1942, Cressman, Ewing, Tillman, Horan, Reynolds, Cohen, Pictorial Histories Publishing Company, 1990, ISBN 0-929521-40-4. My edition is the 1998 printing. Robert Cressman worked, maybe still does, at the US Naval Historical Command; the late Steve Ewing was Director at Patriots Point where CV-10 is parked and the author of biographies of Jimmie Thach and Jimmy Flatley, and with John Lundstrom Butch O'Hare (all of which I recommend, generally); Barrett Tillman, whom I've known, easily, for 45 years is a noted WW2 aviation author with books on the SBD, F6F, F4U, TBF among others; likewise in terms of length of acquaintance, is Mark Horan who probably interviewed more pilots serving at Midway than anyone else ; Clark Reynolds was a professor of history and wrote, amongst other WW2 naval subjects, the classic, The Fast Carriers; Stan Cohen is an authority on WW2 in Alaska.

and though primarily pointed at fighter operations
The First Team - Pacific Naval Air Combat from Pearl Harbor to Midway, John Lundstrom, US Naval Institute Press, 1984, ISBN 0-87021-189-7. Known John for almost 50 years when I came home from college and there he was interviewing my father, I believe for his The First South Pacific Campaign book. John also wrote The First Team and the Guadalcanal Campaign - Naval Fighter Combat from August to November 1942.

And for a more Japanese directed view
Shattered Sword - The Untold Story of the Battle of Midway, Jonathan Parshall andAnthony Tully, Potomac Books, 2005, ISBN 1-57488-930-0. Jon and Tony present the battle from the Japanese side using extensive research into Japanese records.

These are the ones I would recommend. There are others more recent which are okay reads, but I don't see quite the detail and certainly nothing really new, or at least that I hadn't seen before and probably in one of the three above.

I have The First Team and Shattered Sword but I will certainly read the others. Thanks for the info!

 

[Admiral Beez]

Actually the TBD was first flown in combat at Coral Sea and had some limited success. Without a doubt it was hopelessly obsolete at Midway but there were many other factors that contributed to it's slaughter.

If those TBDs at Midway were all swapped out for TBFs (with crews as experienced with their machines as those in the TDBs, rather than the newbies from Midway) would it have made any difference? Certainly the Avenger is faster and better armed, but without effective escort and facing all the KB's expert Zero pilots?

 

[VBF-13]

If those TBDs at Midway were all swapped out for TBFs (with crews as experienced with their machines as those in the TDBs, rather than the newbies from Midway) would it have made any difference? Certainly the Avenger is faster and better armed, but without effective escort and facing all the KB's expert Zero pilots?

VT-8 had TBFs from Midway Island that met up with the TBDs from the Hornet. They didn't have cover. At Coral Sea, the Lexington TBDs managed to get off hits on the Soho, ultimately bringing her down, but they came in with the Lexington SBDs.

 

[R Leonard]

VT-8 had TBFs from Midway Island that met up with the TBDs from the Hornet. They didn't have cover. At Coral Sea, the Lexington TBDs managed to get off hits on the Soho, ultimately bringing her down, but they came in with the Lexington SBDs.

The VT-8 detachment of 6 TBFs at Midway made its attack along with the AAF B-26s. They never met up with the VT-8 TBDs from Hornet. The detachment, as an unescorted torpedo attack had pretty much the same results as the carrier VTs, no hits, disastrous losses. Only Bert Ernest and his tunnel gunner, Harry Ferrier, survived and the plane was a write off. Bert and Harry called themselves "the other sole survivors of VT-8."

Had the US carriers VT squadrons fielded TBFs vice TBDs perhaps the losses might have been less horrendous, but unescorted it would have still been a tragic up hill battle and the torpedo situation would not have improved.

VT-5 TBDs did well against Shoho as well.

 

[hawkeye2an]

Just watched this, never heard any of this info before
USS Hornet: Mutiny & Mayhem at Midway – Wargaming.info

 

[SaparotRob]

Thanks for posting that. I just watched it again.

 

[GrauGeist]

Read the analysis of Mitcher's actions in an artical from the US Naval Institute:
Mitscher and the Mystery of Midway

 

[hawkeye2an]

Read the analysis of Mitcher's actions in an artical from the US Naval Institute:
Mitscher and the Mystery of Midway

Thanks for that

 

[hawkeye2an]

Amazon.com: A Dawn Like Thunder: The True Story of Torpedo Squadron Eight (9780316056533): Robert J. Mrazek: Books
Not sure if the other TBD pilots were the same, but if I remember correctly, it was stated here that only the squadron commander had ever released a live torpedo.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

If those TBDs at Midway were all swapped out for TBFs (with crews as experienced with their machines as those in the TDBs, rather than the newbies from Midway) would it have made any difference? Certainly the Avenger is faster and better armed, but without effective escort and facing all the KB's expert Zero pilots?

Not to mention carrying the same torpedo, which at that time had a truly awful launch envelope.

Later in the war it was found to be able to be dropped at higher altitudes and speed, but we didn't know that in 1942.

Also, I don't know that there was enough time to really work the TBD crews up into real proficiency in the new aircraft. Perhaps so, perhaps not?

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Read the analysis of Mitcher's actions in an artical from the US Naval Institute:
Mitscher and the Mystery of Midway

Bookmarked for later reading, thanks.

 

[Barrett]

It was not an auspicious start to the TBD's combat career. It reminds me of one of the B-26 Marauder's early combat missions in Europe bombing a power station in the Netherlands. 11 B-26s were sent out - none of them came back.

It was the END of the TBD's combat career. Devastators flew their first wartime mission on 7 December without contact. Contrary to The Sole Survivor (who wasn't), the TBD was not a "suicide death trap." It logged a full six months of combat with no in-flight losses to enemy action until Midway.

At risk of committing Shameless Hype: Amazon product ASIN 1841760250