I never said it wasn't...
Terrorist attack In New Zealand
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He never said you did...
michael rauls
Tech Sergeant
- 1,679
- Jul 15, 2016
I think terror attached to either far left or far right ideologies is equally distressing. Here in the U.S. for example we have certainly had our share of both. We've had right wing nuts gunning down inocent women and children in church for nothing more than the color of there skin and we've had left wing cooks walking onto a baseball field and gunning down U.S. Congressmen durring the Republican party practice session for the anual congresional baseball game(the Republican party is the the more conservative party for those not so familiar with U.S. politics) simply because he hated anyone conservative.
I could go on to list at least a dozen atrocities committed by adherents to both political extremes.
Imho, keeping score which wing of political extremists is currently committing the most atrocities or has historically is fraught with it's own moral hazard as it becomes a rallying point for extremists on the other side. Both have committed plenty, now and historically. Which is what I find so distressing when after one of these incidents I see those in either political party or the media try to tar and feather the everyone with a political ideology they don't like with the dirty deeds of the violent extremests.
And many, though certainly not all, on both sides of the isle and media do it and it just fuels more hatred by extremists on the other side.
Suffice it to say the politically and race motivated violence is tragically all to common from the fringes of both ideologies.
I could go on to list at least a dozen atrocities committed by adherents to both political extremes.
Imho, keeping score which wing of political extremists is currently committing the most atrocities or has historically is fraught with it's own moral hazard as it becomes a rallying point for extremists on the other side. Both have committed plenty, now and historically. Which is what I find so distressing when after one of these incidents I see those in either political party or the media try to tar and feather the everyone with a political ideology they don't like with the dirty deeds of the violent extremests.
And many, though certainly not all, on both sides of the isle and media do it and it just fuels more hatred by extremists on the other side.
Suffice it to say the politically and race motivated violence is tragically all to common from the fringes of both ideologies.
swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 4,022
- Jun 25, 2013
I agree with what you're saying, but I would like to add that many politicians are either condoning or minimizing right-wing terror. One very recent example is the Australian who blamed Muslims and immigration policies* for the terror attack in Christchurch. A second would be Rush, who claimed it was a false flag operation.
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* I suspect that keeping white Australians out of New Zealand wasn't his point.
michael rauls
Tech Sergeant
- 1,679
- Jul 15, 2016
I certainly agree with that. In the U.S. however the excuse dynamic is a little different. It's for the most part left wing extremest violence that usually gets excused on balance or simply not reported by many news agencies although there are plenty on the right that certainly try to excuse or make excuses for right wing violence.
That's kinda of my point. Keeping score of which side is currently committing more atrocities or engendering more sympathy from its perpective side will inevitably lead down a deep rabbit hole of finger pointing that will ultimately serve only to fuel violent extremists on both sides.
Better to simply say we have way to much of it from both political extremes and such is unacceptable.
Imho.
mikewint
Captain
Let me put forth another thought here. I'm not sure that these mindless cretins have a real ideology which would actually require some thought. To quote Thoreau: "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation." But sadly these same nobodies can grab a weapon and slaughter the innocent, men, women, children and suddenly they have international renown and fame like Brenton Harrison Tarrant who actually live-streamed the shootings and Stephen Craig Paddock in the US who slaughtered 59 in Las Vegas. Without these heinous attacks would anyone even have heard of them? The path to instant world-wide fame it would seem.
The sad thing is that this discussion on this forum alone reflects the enormous divide between attitudes in the rest of the world, compared to those here in NZ. The political and racial ideologies that polarise are prevalent in politics in many bigger countries round the world and this isn't to say that there isn't racism or political division in NZ, but we don't commonly express it with guns. Not only that, most Kiwis just don't give that much of a crap about it all, being content with watching things unfold on the news and being thankfull that it doesn't happen here. NZ is small, we are insignificant players on the world stage and frankly, that's the way most of us like it. We don't want the rest of the world's BS, plain and simple.
The fact that this happened in NZ means that no one is truly immune to the kind of hatred that is usually found elsewhere out there, nevertheless, the reports of how the rest of the world has shown astonishment that it happened in little NZ is heartening and demonstrates that perhaps there is hope and that we mustn't allow division to take precedent.
There has been talk that social media must accept some accountability for this, well, I disagree. Social media didn't create this monster; it is a vessel for hatred to travel, not the source of the hatred. F-wits round the world will use whatever they have at their disposal to spread their message - the Nazis used film and television media to spread their ideology and we don't blame moving pictures for the Nazis, so social media isn't what causes this kind of behaviour.
People, yes people are the cause of this, specifically people like Steve Bannon and Sebastian Gorka and their like; 'celebrities' and political commentators who use their influence to promote their kind of message are responsible for people like this turd going out and doing what they do. We can sit there and say they have no ideology, but they listen to people like Bannon and Gorka and the likes of Alex Jones and less virulent right wing commentators like your Hannitys and so forth. Dog whistle politics; only those of a particular mindset hear what they want to.
Nevertheless, we don't want this kind of thing in our country and thus far it hasn't been a part of our culture, until now. Other countries round the world have divisive politics because of complex social issues, not here to the same degree and it is a slippery slope toward the sort of thing that we thought only happens on the news in far off countries happening more often here. We mustn't allow the hatred to creep in.
The fact that this happened in NZ means that no one is truly immune to the kind of hatred that is usually found elsewhere out there, nevertheless, the reports of how the rest of the world has shown astonishment that it happened in little NZ is heartening and demonstrates that perhaps there is hope and that we mustn't allow division to take precedent.
There has been talk that social media must accept some accountability for this, well, I disagree. Social media didn't create this monster; it is a vessel for hatred to travel, not the source of the hatred. F-wits round the world will use whatever they have at their disposal to spread their message - the Nazis used film and television media to spread their ideology and we don't blame moving pictures for the Nazis, so social media isn't what causes this kind of behaviour.
People, yes people are the cause of this, specifically people like Steve Bannon and Sebastian Gorka and their like; 'celebrities' and political commentators who use their influence to promote their kind of message are responsible for people like this turd going out and doing what they do. We can sit there and say they have no ideology, but they listen to people like Bannon and Gorka and the likes of Alex Jones and less virulent right wing commentators like your Hannitys and so forth. Dog whistle politics; only those of a particular mindset hear what they want to.
Nevertheless, we don't want this kind of thing in our country and thus far it hasn't been a part of our culture, until now. Other countries round the world have divisive politics because of complex social issues, not here to the same degree and it is a slippery slope toward the sort of thing that we thought only happens on the news in far off countries happening more often here. We mustn't allow the hatred to creep in.
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- #28
parsifal
Colonel
One of politicians has managed to make a complete d*ck of himself . Whilst not saying directly, he has inferred that the problem is because of the Muslims being here. The muslims being here might be difficult in some ways, but how does that justify mass murder. The problem is a debate about more or less muslims entering the country, and then managing the integration of those already here.
This same guy who is an out an out anti-Semite also intimated that a "final solution" was needed in Israel. Fair d inkum, he had to be either a complete idiot, or knew exactly what he was doing when he uttered those words.
Fury as Australian senator blames Christchurch attack on Muslim immigration
This same guy who is an out an out anti-Semite also intimated that a "final solution" was needed in Israel. Fair d inkum, he had to be either a complete idiot, or knew exactly what he was doing when he uttered those words.
Fury as Australian senator blames Christchurch attack on Muslim immigration
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GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
My sympathies go out to the people of New Zealand, who've had a rough time dealing with this idiotic tragedy.
I do agree to a certain extent, that today's internet (social media in particular) as an enabler, as in the days before the internet, people didn't have ready access to conspiracy platforms and weren't emboldened by instant "internet fame".
I am also gladdened by the fact that in the 21st century, we can look at these senseless acts and condemn it unilaterally as an atrocity instead of rushing to arms like what happened in Sarajevo back in June 1914 - clear heads must prevail.
I do agree to a certain extent, that today's internet (social media in particular) as an enabler, as in the days before the internet, people didn't have ready access to conspiracy platforms and weren't emboldened by instant "internet fame".
I am also gladdened by the fact that in the 21st century, we can look at these senseless acts and condemn it unilaterally as an atrocity instead of rushing to arms like what happened in Sarajevo back in June 1914 - clear heads must prevail.
Just a reminder to try and keep as much of the right vs left politics out of the convo. Thanks.
Lets not forget Nigeria, left or right extremists should be destroyed..Nigerian Muslim Militants Kill 120 Christians in Three Weeks | Breitbart..........
Just an observation on my part, but I think our obsession with always dividing our population between left and right (Its become such a trend and buzz now) is part of the problem. It only further fuels hatred and division. It only further legitimizes their agenda.
Extremism is extremism, is extremism. People always seem to view one as more worse than the other based off their own preconcieved brainwashed idiologies and beliefs, when that is not the case.
Until we as a society put our divisions aside,, and stop falling for the trap we are being forced to believe (Social Media has a big part to do with this) we will never be able to beat this.
Again, this is just an abservstion and an opinion of mine. Not saying anyone here is doing that.
Extremism is extremism, is extremism. People always seem to view one as more worse than the other based off their own preconcieved brainwashed idiologies and beliefs, when that is not the case.
Until we as a society put our divisions aside,, and stop falling for the trap we are being forced to believe (Social Media has a big part to do with this) we will never be able to beat this.
Again, this is just an abservstion and an opinion of mine. Not saying anyone here is doing that.
Agree, what do you call these "terrorist" in the mean time. They don't want to be part of a society that would respect one another. They want number 1 I think attention,number 2 a society that is inclusive to their ideology which number 3 leaves us in the middle. The likes of the far right/left has led to every dictatorship we've ever known that has caused millions of lives lost. How do we resolve it?
How about we just call them "Terrorist".
Everytime something like this happens, everyone wants to split into two camps. If it was a right wing extremist, the people who allign themselves on the right go "Yeah but what about that time a left extremist did...", and vice versa when it is a left extremist who does something.
People focus on further division, and justifying their own side and beliefs rather than uniting, and working together as human beings. Regardless of left or right, the majority of people in this world are good people who mean well, yet we continue to hate because parties/idiologies tell us too.
Extremism will never end, because we fuel with our own hate/dislikes/beliefs. Whether we realize it or not, we justify it. I think some welcome it, because it gives them ammo to further their side/cause.
I just find it sickening. It's not limited to the political spectrum though. You see it in all walks of life. People always divide into camps for everything. Look at the 737 Max thread. Rather than focusing on the problem at hand, people would rather focus on Airbus's previous issues, because everything has to be divided down a line (In that case USA/Boeing vs. Europe/Airbus) because it is what this social media, politically driven world conditions us to do
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Just for the record, I brought up the Airbus issue because of a combination of technical issues and insufficient pilot training led to catastrophic consequences which appears to parallel this recent issue with Boeing.
There was no "this or them" in that statement and certainly cannot compare to this horrible tragedy in New Zealand.
There was no "this or them" in that statement and certainly cannot compare to this horrible tragedy in New Zealand.
michael rauls
Tech Sergeant
- 1,679
- Jul 15, 2016
I think your right and I think the division is an unfortunate symptom of the human tenancy to join groups and seak a leader.
I don't know how you counter this on a large scale. People have to be willing to look at other points of view with an open mind which sadly most are not.
Perhaps starting in small venues such as this one people will begin to change see the virtue of being a bit more open minded about other points of view even if they don't always agree.
Of course there is a point when other points of view are deserving if our distain like the violent extremism that started all this but hopefully we, that is the vast majority of humanity, can be patient and clear headed enough to discern the difference.
We can only hope.
Just for the record, I brought up the Airbus issue because of a combination of technical issues and insufficient pilot training led to catastrophic consequences which appears to parallel this recent issue with Boeing.
There was no "this or them" in that statement and certainly cannot compare to this horrible tragedy in New Zealand.
My apologies if you think I was calling you out. I was not, but can see how it may appear so.
Again none of my ramblings above were in regards to any person here, just simple observations.
Agreed 100%. Well said.
mikewint
Captain
Keep in mind that They're not like you and me, which means they must be evil!
- Thread starter
- #40
parsifal
Colonel
I don't much care that a person is left or right. I care if a person is good or evil. That too is a hard definition....what is good and what is evil. For me, it is the standard that a society develops that defines what is good and what is evil. Every society has certain things that you can and cant do, certain standards that you just cannot do and still be judged a good person. one of those things that you cannot do is kill other people that are not to blame or are defenceless. Only the state has the right on who lives or dies, and even then there are sanctions on state authorised killing. Issues of self defence or protection of property are a separate issue here. It is not self defence if the victim is defenceless and cowering in front of you.
Differences within the community ought to be reason for celebration....we are all different, yet we have learned to get along. When you really break down what happened ln Christchurch, its a descent into the most barbaric forms of tribalism and xenophobia that one can possibly imagine.
This is also not about gun control. A person with a turban driving a bus into a crowd of people is just as evil and just as dangerous as the people that fire guns at other people. I happen to support gun control, but decisions to impose gun control limits is a matter for each society to make, and must be made in a calm rational environment.
Differences within the community ought to be reason for celebration....we are all different, yet we have learned to get along. When you really break down what happened ln Christchurch, its a descent into the most barbaric forms of tribalism and xenophobia that one can possibly imagine.
This is also not about gun control. A person with a turban driving a bus into a crowd of people is just as evil and just as dangerous as the people that fire guns at other people. I happen to support gun control, but decisions to impose gun control limits is a matter for each society to make, and must be made in a calm rational environment.
