Matt308
Glock Perfection
To his chin. He may have done it. But it fuc%in' hurt. I own one. Trust me.
The Best Assault Rifle.
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You pretty much can with the M4 and M16.
Matt308
Glock Perfection
Yep. Wouldn't feel pleasant, but they don't kick like a .30-06. I'd love to see a video of that M1. Certainly I'm sure there is some idiot that could do it. But don't try this at home kids.
renrich
Chief Master Sergeant
I have a 30-06 among other rifles and fired the M1 all through basic and I don't know how he did it either. My memory may be faulty but I omitted he held it against his upper thigh also and squeezed off a round. Anyway I was impressed. Actually the Garand has a slightly less rambunctious recoil because of the gas operation versus a bolt action or in my case a lever action.
Matt308
Glock Perfection
The thigh. The stomach. The chest. One handed Rambo style. But on the chin or nose. That I would love to see. 
Matt308
Glock Perfection
Yep. Same with the Lee Enfield.
Matt308
Glock Perfection
Not big, but big enough!
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
This I can confirm...Soren said:
drgondog
Major
Grin.
While I a.) do NOT have an AK of any variety and cannot speak first hand regarding anything but rep, I have 4 'battle rifles' for lack of a better description (plus a variety of rifles actioned on Springfield, Mauser 98, M700 and pre-64 when the discussion gets to recoil)
I do have an M1, and M1A1 (civilized M-14), AR10 and AR15. If something 'dreadful' happened and I could only pick one I think I would reach for the AR10 (civilized AR18 w/improvements). I don't have a scope on by preference but be persuaded depending on what was required
With factory 150/Mil 147 it is more accurate than any of my other accurate semi's except the .556 round for the AR15... still less than MOA all day long w/factory Hornady 150's... and its a lot lighter than the Garand/son of Garand. It shoots 165s very well and starts to taper off in accuracy with 200's (twist too slow with 1:10)
The close second is the M1A1 -also very accurate but at my age I want a gun bearer to carry it and the ammo until I need it.
Next would be the AR15.
I suspect I would be tempted for full auto and get in the 'assault rifle' biz but believe semi auto just fine for me.
Soren - On the '98 vs the '03 as for recoil - look closely to the bullet. The 198gr issue for the 98 probably does not kick more than a 200 gr 30-06 and as I recall the first round issued to the 03 was a 220gr load in the 30-03 then the 30-06 before WWI.
If the comparison on 98 kick vs 03 in WWII then by MV and respective bullet weights for that time I could be argued for the 98 as sharper thumper - but couldn't be a significant difference.
Picking from Poll I would have to ask what am I supposed to be doing? If I'm spotting for a sniper and back up, then M-14. If it's Close Quarter downtown as the daily grind I suspect I would pick the AK from rep but likely to choose the M-16A4 by familiarity.
I would also pick the M-16 for all around with the 62gr (1:9 twist) round as round of choice for All around as long as I could reasonably keep it clean - I've never been in places like Iraq so have no idea how it's doin there in the high dust/sand environment
For critters and scenarios likely in Texas or Oregon - AR10 for sure. Fully auto ? AR10 for me.
[email protected]
Recruit
- 1
- Jun 13, 2007
someone give me a good reason other than its reliability (which they've improved) why the l85a2 isn't the best!?.....plus wouldn't the m14 be better than the ak47 except maybe reliability and simplicity
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Nope...
Drgondog,
Part of the reason the K98k gives a bigger kick is the heavier bullet, no doubt, but the extra drive force the Mauser cartridge can give heavier bullets is also part of the reason. Even with 200 - 220 gr bullets the 30-06 doesn't give the kick of the 198gr sS bullet in the K98k. (Don't confuse cartridge size with available drive force!)
I'm not saying the difference is huge, but its there - and even more so when we're comparing the K98k with the Garand. (The cycling mechanism taking away abit of the recoil)
Part of the reason the K98k gives a bigger kick is the heavier bullet, no doubt, but the extra drive force the Mauser cartridge can give heavier bullets is also part of the reason. Even with 200 - 220 gr bullets the 30-06 doesn't give the kick of the 198gr sS bullet in the K98k. (Don't confuse cartridge size with available drive force!)
I'm not saying the difference is huge, but its there - and even more so when we're comparing the K98k with the Garand. (The cycling mechanism taking away abit of the recoil)
You have got to be kidding right?
Having served in the military and regularly fired M-16/M-4, AK-47s and done quite a bit of training with the Brit guns including the SA80/L85 and I can tell you the L85/SA80 is the last of the 3 in that group that I would want.
The Brits that we trained with even said they dont like it...
drgondog
Major
Say what? "Drive Force" ?? - are you referring to some form of integrated impulse curve difference leading to larger 'felt' recoil between the 8x57JS and the 30-06? Otherwise F=1/2 MV>2
The commercial loading for the 150 gr 8x57JS is 2800 fps,100fps lower than the 150 gr 30-06. The military ball round for a M-1 was lower capacity and pressure resulting in 2700fps.
So, if you compare a M98 actioned rifle with commercial 150 gr bullet in 8x57JS to the same rifle re-barreled, same weight and length, to 30-06 in commercial 150 gr - then the 30-06 will kick harder. Change the cartridge to Mil Ball issue for M-1 and the 8mm will kick harder.
Step up to 200gr for 30-06 and compare to many (RW and Norma) standard commercial for 8mm - the 8mm has about 50fps higher velocity ---> more recoil force. Compare against military issue 198gr for M98 ? not sure. The 'std' 200 gr 30-06 is 2592fps.
I have been re-loading and wildcatting for 40+ years including 8mm, and 8mm-06. It is a nice cartridge and nearly the equal of the 30-06 in commercial loads in all bullet weights under 180 and superior from 196 and up, and slightly better wrt military cartridge for K98 vs M-1 at 150gr because a.) military brass of 30-06 less capacity than commercial brass and can't be loaded to same pressures, and b.) uses less powder for same reason.
Using a standard 30-06 round off the shelf in 1939 (or today) would not be good long term in a Garand. A M98 action is stronger than an -03 but doesn't matter under 60Kpsi.
If you re-load using Winchester brass (pretty much the most capacity of any mfr) - same primers and equivalent bullet weights and types - each to approximately 55K psi CUP - the 30-06 will be faster in every case that I have seen to date as well as my own experience up to 190gr, particularly with RL22.
Beyond that I can load a 8mmx57JS faster and stay within safe pressures
So, if not 1/2 MV>2 what is 'drive force'? It really is a new term for me.
The only thing I can think of is the benefit derived by having a larger bore derived from same case with a larger bullet. My 338-06 will drive a 225g Nosler Accubond at 2600 fps w/61.0 gr H414 which is more than a 200gr bullet in an 8x57JS. Same case as 30-06 necked up
Regards,
Bill
Bill, you're using American commercial ammunition thats why. American 8x57mm loads are grossly underloaded, go buy some fullpower European ammunition.
Go to reloadersnest.com, they've got some good handloads you can try.
In strong actions the 8x57mm IS can be safely loaded up to 58 - 60,000 psi MAP, the same or slightly more than the 30.06.
A 154gr bullet in the 7.92x57mm IS will be driven up to 3,000 + fps, and 200gr bullets will do up to 2,700+ fps.
Here's some hot loads you can try (All 56,000 psi MAP or less):
Real Guns - Handload Data - 8x57mm JS Mauser
The Germans themselves back in WWII used uploaded types of 7.92x57mm ammunition, mostly for use in aircraft guns, although snipers "Borrowed" them for an extra 150m of effective range. These rounds were designated "V-patronen", the V stood for Improved and drove the std. 12.8g (198gr) sS projectile to 868 m/s (2850 fps).
154gr 7.92x57mm Turkish Surplus ammunition does around 2,950 fps on average in the Gewehr 98.
As to what I meant with drive force, well thats the amount of force the cartridge can get out of a bullet at different weights - the 8x57mm cartridge has a larger surface area to push on, leading to better acceleration with different bullet weights. The higher the bullet density the lower the acceleration decceleration and vice versa.
PS: Drive force isn't a general term in the gun world, hence why you haven't heard it before.
Go to reloadersnest.com, they've got some good handloads you can try.
In strong actions the 8x57mm IS can be safely loaded up to 58 - 60,000 psi MAP, the same or slightly more than the 30.06.
A 154gr bullet in the 7.92x57mm IS will be driven up to 3,000 + fps, and 200gr bullets will do up to 2,700+ fps.
Here's some hot loads you can try (All 56,000 psi MAP or less):
Real Guns - Handload Data - 8x57mm JS Mauser
The Germans themselves back in WWII used uploaded types of 7.92x57mm ammunition, mostly for use in aircraft guns, although snipers "Borrowed" them for an extra 150m of effective range. These rounds were designated "V-patronen", the V stood for Improved and drove the std. 12.8g (198gr) sS projectile to 868 m/s (2850 fps).
154gr 7.92x57mm Turkish Surplus ammunition does around 2,950 fps on average in the Gewehr 98.
As to what I meant with drive force, well thats the amount of force the cartridge can get out of a bullet at different weights - the 8x57mm cartridge has a larger surface area to push on, leading to better acceleration with different bullet weights. The higher the bullet density the lower the acceleration decceleration and vice versa.
PS: Drive force isn't a general term in the gun world, hence why you haven't heard it before.
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Making new terminology are we Soren lol???
