The Best Bf - 109 Variant ?

[CharlesBronson]

Mr Kazhanov is Russian after all, you cannot wait for much clear jugdement from his side.

Now.. I agree that Hartmann served to a tiranic and sadistic regime, but some of the estatements of Kazhanov are too naif or simply stupid...my favorite is:

" one of Hartmann's primary concerns when flying combat sorties was his own personal safety. There are very few bombers among his victims.."

1- Off course that E.H want to stay alive, he was not a Kamikaze if that is what this rusky means.

2 - Aniway the second part of this argument is plain wrong, Of his 352 victories, 260 were achieved against russian fighters , seven against U.S. Fifteenth Air Force Mustangs, and the other 85 includes large numbers of twin engined DB-2/3, Pe-2, Tu-2, Il-2 and others 2 crew aircrafts.

3- There is a veiled statement this russian writer want to make us believe,.. Hartmann was a coward...well...sure he wasnt

 

[evangilder]

Anyone who has had that many engagements and kills in fighter combat is far from a coward in my book.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Could anyone find additional information about this jerk? He may be a so-called historian, but like my dad used to say "So smart, but yet so stupid." Mr. Kazhanov, what a joke!

 

[KraziKanuK]

Could anyone find additional information about this jerk? He may be a so-called historian, but like my dad used to say "So smart, but yet so stupid." Mr. Kazhanov, what a joke!

A link to a 12 O'cloch High forum thread, http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=744

From another thread, same forum:

From article by Christer Bergström :
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/hartm/hartm1.htm

The sudden steep rise in "Bubi" Hartmann's success rate created suspicion among several other fighter pilots. One of them was Lt. Fritz Obleser, a twenty-year-old Austrian who had joined JG 52 a couple of months after Hartmann. Obleser also had achieved a large number of victories, and he found it hard to believe that another relative newcomer could rise to such level in such a short space of time. So Obleser asked the Gruppenkommandeur if he was allowed to fly a mission with Hartmann, and he received permission to do so. Hartmann and Obleser took off from Novo-Zaporozhye at 1200 hours on 1 October 1943. As they returned fifty-five minutes later, Obleser admitted that his earlier suspicions toward Hartmann had been unfounded; he had personally witnessed how Hartmann had blown two La-5s out of the sky in a matter of minutes.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Could anyone find additional information about this jerk? He may be a so-called historian, but like my dad used to say "So smart, but yet so stupid." Mr. Kazhanov, what a joke!

A link to a 12 O'cloch High forum thread, http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=744

From another thread, same forum:

From article by Christer Bergström :
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/hartm/hartm1.htm

The sudden steep rise in "Bubi" Hartmann's success rate created suspicion among several other fighter pilots. One of them was Lt. Fritz Obleser, a twenty-year-old Austrian who had joined JG 52 a couple of months after Hartmann. Obleser also had achieved a large number of victories, and he found it hard to believe that another relative newcomer could rise to such level in such a short space of time. So Obleser asked the Gruppenkommandeur if he was allowed to fly a mission with Hartmann, and he received permission to do so. Hartmann and Obleser took off from Novo-Zaporozhye at 1200 hours on 1 October 1943. As they returned fifty-five minutes later, Obleser admitted that his earlier suspicions toward Hartmann had been unfounded; he had personally witnessed how Hartmann had blown two La-5s out of the sky in a matter of minutes.

Thanks Kanuk - went to the site you posted, it seems a lot of folks are steamed about this.

From another bio page: "His ferocity in combat earned him nicknames from the Soviets, the first of which was "Karaya" (sweetheart). But as more and more Russian pilots were downed this changed to "Cheriye Chorni": the Black Devil, inreference to the black tulip petal shaped design on his nose. The Soviets put a bounty of 10,000 rubles on his head, but Soviet pilots were still avoiding him, and so he had his infamous black nose design removed."

I don't think an 80 kill German ace would warrant such a bounty. I wonder why Mr. Kazhanov did not investigate this.

 

[Udet]

I am way too familiar with all these post-communist wimps.

They do need some professional help don´t they?

Hartmann a "coward"...

If we were going to play in the same pond of shit these alleged "historian" is playing, mr. Ivan Kozhedub who happened to begin his career a mere few months after Hartmann´s debut would have appeared to in fact care a lot about "his own personal safety".

Mr. Kozhedub flew a small number of missions when compared to Hartmann´s total. The 3/4 of a million times hero of the soviet union flew about 350 missions...against the more than 1,000 missions flown by Erich.

Perhaps the soviet propaganda did not want one of its favorite toys to get creamed at the front.

So this neo-bolshevik tramp writing articles in a french magazine apparently did not know the guy "who cared just too much about his own personal safety" took off on mission to engage the soviet air force in the very last day of the war: even then he killed another soviet plane.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I am way too familiar with all these post-communist wimps.

They do need some professional help don´t they?

Hartmann a "coward"...

If we were going to play in the same pond of s**t these alleged "historian" is playing, mr. Ivan Kozhedub who happened to begin his career a mere few months after Hartmann´s debut would have appeared to in fact care a lot about "his own personal safety".

Mr. Kozhedub flew a small number of missions when compared to Hartmann´s total. The 3/4 of a million times hero of the soviet union flew about 350 missions...against the more than 1,000 missions flown by Erich.

Perhaps the soviet propaganda did not want one of its favorite toys to get creamed at the front.

So this neo-bolshevik tramp writing articles in a french magazine apparently did not know the guy "who cared just too much about his own personal safety" took off on mission to engage the soviet air force in the very last day of the war: even then he killed another soviet plane.

Well put Udet, here's a link to this story: http://members.aol.com/falkeeins/Sturmgruppen/hartmannclaims.html

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Coward? If I recall reading about Hartmann he said that you had to get so close to the enemy that they filled your gun sights. On several occasions his aircraft crashed because of damage sustained flying through the burning wreckage of his victom.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Yep, this is one I gotta go with Udet's Statment - "neo-bolshevik tramp."

 

[Erich]

we might as well call all the pilots of JG 52 cowards according to this Soviet poser. Geez with over 11,000 kills towards your record the highest of any German Luftwaffe single engine Geschwader. jelousy perhaps, quite so in my humble opinion..............wishing his 'Red Guards' gonad units could of performed with such high skill and daring during the conflict...........

what nonsense !

E ~

 

[plan_D]

I agree with you all, obviously.

What I don't get is, how could you call someone a coward if he's going after more fighters than bombers? Surely it's harder to shoot down an enemy fighter than it is a bomber. I mean, come on, let's be honest a bomber was a sitting duck!

 

[Udet]

Plan_D:

Of course. Totally correct.

Please keep in mind the guy is psychiatric case.

Has any of you read any interviews of Ivan Kozhedub? It is the same schizofrenic delusion one can detect on many soviet accounts, "you have to understand our planes were absolutely superior to both the Bf109 and Fw190"...blah, blah...

While it is true the soviets were fielding some competitive fighters in the final year of the war, the bulk of them were basically equipped and the most important fact: the bulk of the soviet pilots were undertrained.

As Erich put it and going a bit further on that, you can see the VVS had the so called "guards" air regiments by mid 1942!!!! What could any soviet air regiment had possibly achieved by such date? Surviving perhaps.

The fact the VVS lost some 11,000 combat aircraft to all causesduring 1945 alone - a front where the Luftwaffe did not have the bulk of its force deployed- speaks wonders of the quality of soviet airmen.

I have met a Luftwaffe veteran who fought in the east flying a Bf 109 G-10 in the final months. His opinion is his 109 was superior to the late soviet yaks he engaged in dogfights at low altitude and that his unit aggressiveness in combat did not cease to cause an effect on soviet formations. Perhaps the so-called German order to "avoid combat with yaks at low altitude" is another one of the soviet mythology issues?


To end my remarks on the neo-bolshevik tramp, could someone send him a letter and inform him on the number of missions their top hero flew during the war. Some 350 missions...where are the guts there? 1944 was a year of absolutely intense and critical action in the eastern front.

Perhaps the top soviet hero was concerned a great deal on his own personal safety and in a year of dramatic combat, when he could have flown many many missions, decided to not join the fight that often and rather stayed on the ground drinking vodka and having bors.

 

[plan_D]

I've read the Luftwaffe fielded a mere 20% of it's force on the Eastern front in 1944-'45.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I'm arranging a Kazhanov lynch mob!

 

[delcyros]

It appears from time to time that I have to take words in order to relativate a little. So it is now. Don´t be unkind to the efforts of VVS or to the bravery of those soviet airman who fighted and died against the Luftwaffe. Moreso to those, who stayed alive like Ivan Khozedub. Keep in mind that the soviets had the best fighter pilots of the allies if you care about claims. Unlike the western allies they had to fly against excellent trained pilots in comparably good planes and large forces over a very wide area. It should be noted also that not 20 but 50% of the Luftwaffe was in 1945 deployed against the soviets. (..of course, if you ignore Luftflotte 6 with it´s 2163 planes, which contributed much to the fighting over the Oder and count them towards the Reichs homedefense, you may finish with less, but this is wrong) In average spoken, more Luftwaffe planes have been deployed over the years to the eastern fronat than to all other theatres (except Reichsverteidigung, which was nearly as large as the eastern front in 1944/45 -only). More Luftwaffe planes have been lost over Russia than over France, Britain, Afrika or western Germany. While it is true that the soviets suffered terrible losses over the years, there is no need to downgrade the contributions made by VVS to win the war for the allies.

 

[plan_D]

I find the 50% number hard to believe since the Luftwaffe in 1944-'45 was more concerned with protecting Germany and the factories that kept the Luftwaffe running than stemming the Soviet advance.

There would have been no Luftwaffe had they not diverted the majority of their forces towards the Western front.

No one is taking away the bravery of the VVS but they were a poor, under-trained force. The Western Allies did more damage to the Luftwaffe than the VVS through their bombing campaign against aircraft, oil and ball bearing factories amongst other things.

The USAAF, USN, FAA and RAF were not just fighting the Luftwaffe, however the VVS were just fighting the Luftwaffe so had more to throw in.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

You also have to remember that the based alot of there propoganda on heroes. A heroic figure always makes your warriors fight harder. They needed to downplay the German Hero and make there heros larger then life.

 

[Erich]

more than 3/4rs of the Reich defence force was sent to the Ost front for the last battles for Berlin at the middle of January. The Reich defence units JG 300 and 301 with some Bf 190G's of JG 53 reamined behind to bolster what was left of the defence of GErmany's interior and they were slaughtered..........

here was what was left of the single engine day fighter force over Deutschland:

I./JG 7 with the Me 262 near Hamburg.
JG 300 and JG 301 around Berlin literally
part of II./JG 3 on Berlins S.W. corner
JG 53 in Bayern
JG 2 around Merzhausen and Altenstadt, Nidda

JG's 26 and 27 very close proximity around Rheine, Achmer, Nordhorn, Hespe

all other single engine Geschwaders on the Ost front

1 February 1945

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I dont blame them either for doing it that way. Besides the fact that they had to defend Berlin but the fact that I would rather fall into the US or British hands.

 

[Erich]

Many of the Ost Geschwadern retreated to western hands to surrender in the last days literally......JG 54 for one, JG 7 another which had been flying out of Prague like KG 51 flying the jet