cheddar cheese
Major General
I give up. Im not up on engines...
The Best Bf - 109 Variant ?
- Thread starter lesofprimus
- Start date
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
- Status
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
shoved a jet enigne in the back??
KraziKanuK
Banned
- 792
- Jan 26, 2005
Polishing and waxing did wunders for the speed. 
Having no dings also helped.
The only other thing I can think of is increasing the boost to 1.98 but afaik this was not officially approved til 1945.
Was not the supercharger variable speed Erich? Did they tweek it like done to some automatic trannies today?
Having no dings also helped.The only other thing I can think of is increasing the boost to 1.98 but afaik this was not officially approved til 1945.
Was not the supercharger variable speed Erich? Did they tweek it like done to some automatic trannies today?
Yeah I do not know what they might have done. But I agree with Erich I would go with a Me-109G varient. The G was excellent. The K yes had the best performance but it lagged in maneaverability.
Even though dont take me wrong I am not doubting you Erich, it is just new to me, and I am sure as soon as you tell us it will make sense to me. But the fastest I have heard of a Me-109G was 410 and the average is this right here:
Type: Single-seat fighter
Werk #: 10639
Origin: Bayerische Flegzeugwerke, renamed Messerschmitt AG 1938
Engine:
Type: Daimler-Benz DB 605 A-1 liquid-cooled, inverted V12
Horsepower At Take-Off: 1,475 hp
Horsepower At 18,700 Ft.: 1,355 hp
Horsepower With GM1 At 27,890 Ft.: 1,250 hp
Fuel:
Capacity: N/A
Type: N/A
Dimensions:
Wing span: 32 ft 6.5 in.
Length: 29 ft 0.5 in.
Height: 8 ft 2.5 in.
Wing Surface Area: N/A
Weights:
Empty, Equipped: 4,968 lbs.
Normal, Loaded: 6,834 lbs.
Maximum, Overloaded: 7,055 lbs.
Performance: At 6,834 lbs.
Maximum Speed:
317 mph at sea level
331 mph at 3,280 ft.
350 mph at 6,560 ft.
365 mph at 9,840 ft.
369 mph at 16,400 ft.
398 mph at 20,670 ft.
383 mph at 26,250 ft.
406 mph at 28,540 ft. (With GM1)
Range:
Internal Fuel Only
340 mls at 322 mph
With 66 Imp Gallon (300 Liter) Drop Tank
528 mls at 322 mph
Initial climb: N/A
Time to 9,840 ft (3,000m): N/A
Time to 18,700 ft (5,700m): N/A
Service Ceiling: 39,370 Ft.
Armament:
One 20mm Mg 151/20 engine mounted cannon with 150 rounds
And
Two 7.9mm MG17 fuselage mounted machine guns with 500 rpg.
Even though dont take me wrong I am not doubting you Erich, it is just new to me, and I am sure as soon as you tell us it will make sense to me. But the fastest I have heard of a Me-109G was 410 and the average is this right here:
Type: Single-seat fighter
Werk #: 10639
Origin: Bayerische Flegzeugwerke, renamed Messerschmitt AG 1938
Engine:
Type: Daimler-Benz DB 605 A-1 liquid-cooled, inverted V12
Horsepower At Take-Off: 1,475 hp
Horsepower At 18,700 Ft.: 1,355 hp
Horsepower With GM1 At 27,890 Ft.: 1,250 hp
Fuel:
Capacity: N/A
Type: N/A
Dimensions:
Wing span: 32 ft 6.5 in.
Length: 29 ft 0.5 in.
Height: 8 ft 2.5 in.
Wing Surface Area: N/A
Weights:
Empty, Equipped: 4,968 lbs.
Normal, Loaded: 6,834 lbs.
Maximum, Overloaded: 7,055 lbs.
Performance: At 6,834 lbs.
Maximum Speed:
317 mph at sea level
331 mph at 3,280 ft.
350 mph at 6,560 ft.
365 mph at 9,840 ft.
369 mph at 16,400 ft.
398 mph at 20,670 ft.
383 mph at 26,250 ft.
406 mph at 28,540 ft. (With GM1)
Range:
Internal Fuel Only
340 mls at 322 mph
With 66 Imp Gallon (300 Liter) Drop Tank
528 mls at 322 mph
Initial climb: N/A
Time to 9,840 ft (3,000m): N/A
Time to 18,700 ft (5,700m): N/A
Service Ceiling: 39,370 Ft.
Armament:
One 20mm Mg 151/20 engine mounted cannon with 150 rounds
And
Two 7.9mm MG17 fuselage mounted machine guns with 500 rpg.
Erich
the old Sage
Gentlemen we have a winner, or almost...............chocalate chip cookie ok ? 8)
yes besides removing the armor from the craft including the head armor, the AS engines had a two stage, some say 3, supercharger which could be "tweaked". what is interesting is the idea of thinning the oil for higher altitude flights, this was done esepcially to one experimental "Weiße 8" Bf 109G-6/AS proving to be the fastest a/c of the over sized staffel. Painted all light blue RLM 76, the body of the aircraft was completely polished over, whashed then waxed with spray on polish daily; the "black men worked" while the pilots slept till dusk or later when they went to the air. In this particualr case the blue a/c had all rivets and lines filled in-puttied over and the a/c had a high gloss finish.......it was a hot rod. a source which is hard to read states on one of it's many missions the a/c hit almost 500 mph
yes besides removing the armor from the craft including the head armor, the AS engines had a two stage, some say 3, supercharger which could be "tweaked". what is interesting is the idea of thinning the oil for higher altitude flights, this was done esepcially to one experimental "Weiße 8" Bf 109G-6/AS proving to be the fastest a/c of the over sized staffel. Painted all light blue RLM 76, the body of the aircraft was completely polished over, whashed then waxed with spray on polish daily; the "black men worked" while the pilots slept till dusk or later when they went to the air. In this particualr case the blue a/c had all rivets and lines filled in-puttied over and the a/c had a high gloss finish.......it was a hot rod. a source which is hard to read states on one of it's many missions the a/c hit almost 500 mph
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
wow 
cheddar cheese
Major General
Interesting! 8)
KraziKanuK
Banned
- 792
- Jan 26, 2005
Erich, how did they fit the extra tubine wheels for the extra stages?
Yeah that is really interesting. I wonder how I had never known that!
Anyhow well everyone this is the last time I will be posting for a while, I am losting my interenet tomorrow and believe me this is a good thing. I will see you again when I get home!
Anyhow well everyone this is the last time I will be posting for a while, I am losting my interenet tomorrow and believe me this is a good thing. I will see you again when I get home!
Erich
the old Sage
will be missing your posts Eagle. hop to hear from you soon via the States.
take care............
KK not real sure but think it was a 2-stage supercharger installed in the AS engines, had increased cooler capacity. Engines are not my thing unfortunately
E ~
take care............
KK not real sure but think it was a 2-stage supercharger installed in the AS engines, had increased cooler capacity. Engines are not my thing unfortunately
E ~
KraziKanuK
Banned
- 792
- Jan 26, 2005
The reason I ask Erich is that when the Merlin went from 1 stage to 2 stage the overall length of the engine increased. On the DB this would put the added stage near or past the fuselage skin, since it was mounted 90* to the engine and the induction 'tube' would definately be outside the fuselage skin. (see pg 163 of Bf109F,G&K for a pic)
I understood that the AS engine got a larger dia turbine wheel. To make it fit, the engine bearer had to be redesigned (arced instead of straight) which is why we see the more aerodynamic mg fairings.
I understood that the AS engine got a larger dia turbine wheel. To make it fit, the engine bearer had to be redesigned (arced instead of straight) which is why we see the more aerodynamic mg fairings.
Like the Spitfire, the Bf109 saw service throughout the entire conflict; as the war progressed both planes evolved accordingly.
The Spitfire MkI and the Bf109E which first saw service in the conflict were to some extent, very different to the Sptifire MkXIV and the Bf109 K-4 which met the end of the war.
The enemies the Bf109 faced in 1939 or 1940, were not the same the model met in, say, 1944. The same goes for the Spitfire.
Bigger and more powerful engines being fitted with a continuous increase in speed; several versions and sub-versions....
Perhaps i´d go for the Bf109G`s. Narrowing my choice, I would go for the G-10.
The Spitfire MkI and the Bf109E which first saw service in the conflict were to some extent, very different to the Sptifire MkXIV and the Bf109 K-4 which met the end of the war.
The enemies the Bf109 faced in 1939 or 1940, were not the same the model met in, say, 1944. The same goes for the Spitfire.
Bigger and more powerful engines being fitted with a continuous increase in speed; several versions and sub-versions....
Perhaps i´d go for the Bf109G`s. Narrowing my choice, I would go for the G-10.
A
Anonymous
Guest
The Bf109-F2 high alt model was the height of the 109. Later models were only slightly faster, had slightly better armor and armament, handled worse, and were generally outclassed by their opponents. The F was a very competitive fighter when it first came out.
I also like the 15mm gun over the 20mm gun for fighter vs. fighter combat. And the high alt model evidently had NO2 injection.
=S=
Lunatic
I also like the 15mm gun over the 20mm gun for fighter vs. fighter combat. And the high alt model evidently had NO2 injection.
=S=
Lunatic
Erich
the old Sage
The G-10 109 had MW 50 W injection as standard and the K ?
RG:
Sorry but the word "outclassed" does not appear to apply here.
While I have seen several opinions regarding the F versions as the "best" in the Bf109 family, i do not think the later versions of the 109 were "outclassed" by their opponents, at all.
As a dogfighter, the Bf109 versions are second to none.
Even by knowing it is the case of one sole fighter pilot, how do you explain seven (7) USAAF fighter pilots in their "superior" P-51s did not live to tell the story after meeting Erich Hartmann flying his Bf109 (G-10 if i recall correctly) over Romania?
I have been told by people who know: the Bf109 G-10, just to mention one type of Bf 109, could out fly a P-51 virtually at any altitude. At low and medium speed dogfights a Bf109 G-10 pilot could even fly circles around the P-51.
No matter how much a genius a pilot can be in the controls if you give him an "outclassed" plane to take off and meet the enemy.
Also i know a few USAAF veterans who amazingly, do not buy the allied propaganda tribulations portraying the dogfights against the Luftwaffe as piece of cake.
So outclassed is not the word.
Sorry but the word "outclassed" does not appear to apply here.
While I have seen several opinions regarding the F versions as the "best" in the Bf109 family, i do not think the later versions of the 109 were "outclassed" by their opponents, at all.
As a dogfighter, the Bf109 versions are second to none.
Even by knowing it is the case of one sole fighter pilot, how do you explain seven (7) USAAF fighter pilots in their "superior" P-51s did not live to tell the story after meeting Erich Hartmann flying his Bf109 (G-10 if i recall correctly) over Romania?
I have been told by people who know: the Bf109 G-10, just to mention one type of Bf 109, could out fly a P-51 virtually at any altitude. At low and medium speed dogfights a Bf109 G-10 pilot could even fly circles around the P-51.
No matter how much a genius a pilot can be in the controls if you give him an "outclassed" plane to take off and meet the enemy.
Also i know a few USAAF veterans who amazingly, do not buy the allied propaganda tribulations portraying the dogfights against the Luftwaffe as piece of cake.
So outclassed is not the word.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Udet said:
Well, I've been told differently concerning the Bf109G vs. P-51 (and other fighters) matchup. The plane handeled poorly at medium-high to high speeds. Visability was poor. Armament was weak. Armor was better than the F but almost useless.
As for Hartmen's victories - he was a very skilled pilot who was excellent at setting up and executing the sneak attack. Hartmann had something around 250 victories and most of the pilots of the 334th FG of which you speak had less than 10 combat sorties under their belts and no kills. On top of that, Hartmann's black Tulip, a BF109-G14, was a heavily modified 109 (as was common for top aces of all sides).
A top quality pilot could win in a plane that was outclassed, as long as it was not too badly outclassed, and especially when facing relative rookie opponents. And in this case, you are talking about the Luftwaffe's best pilot against almost pure rookies!
=S=
Lunatic
Erich
the old Sage
Hartmann flew a standard G-14/AS as well as a G-10 which was faster. 2 13mm's and a single 2cm were enough to take out any allied fighter. gun cams prove that. some opf the G-6/AS and G-10's plus K-4's had a single 3cm to replace the 2cm. Yes I would say their was enough firepower. the G-10 could keep pace with any high altitidue Allied a/c. the diaries prove that as well. It was found it could fly above the Mossies of the LNSF and keep up with them if need be. so here is another application.
the F model had it's hey-day in Afrika with JG 27, 77, 53.
the F model had it's hey-day in Afrika with JG 27, 77, 53.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Erich said:
The 109 could not "keep up" with the P-51. It was able to mount short sprints of about equal speed but was subject to overheating in less than 3 minutes when doing so. Its dive speed was at least 65 mph lower. But more importantly, at such speeds its ailerons were almost useless.
=S=
Lunatic
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
which could be a problem.........
RG:
Erich made good points there.
That point here would rather be the P-51 was not abolutely superior to the Bf109. Better at some things, surpassed doing others.
What i mentioned was a fact, the G-10 could outfly the Mustang virtually at any altitude.
The G-6/AS could also more than deal and outfly any enemy pursuer.
The Bf109 could make things the P-51 could not, and viceversa.
RG: can you mention the weak points of the P-51?
You are not going to suggest it was better at everything, are you?
Be honest; I can understand the veterans who flew it telling the Mustang is one of the most glorious creations ever and that it was a flawless toy, and that it made an unvaluable contribution to "save humankind from darkness and slavery".
Since you were not there, I do think i can expect a certain level of objectiveness from you.
Finally RG, I have a bit more than 50 gun camera recordings of German fighters pounding the P-51, and from most of them can be concluded the German fighter (either Bf109 or Fw190) could more than outfly the Mustang.
I repeat, each plane had its strong and weak spots; it was the pilot who in the end, had to know when to attack, when to wait and even when to simply withdraw.
Erich made good points there.
That point here would rather be the P-51 was not abolutely superior to the Bf109. Better at some things, surpassed doing others.
What i mentioned was a fact, the G-10 could outfly the Mustang virtually at any altitude.
The G-6/AS could also more than deal and outfly any enemy pursuer.
The Bf109 could make things the P-51 could not, and viceversa.
RG: can you mention the weak points of the P-51?
You are not going to suggest it was better at everything, are you?
Be honest; I can understand the veterans who flew it telling the Mustang is one of the most glorious creations ever and that it was a flawless toy, and that it made an unvaluable contribution to "save humankind from darkness and slavery".
Since you were not there, I do think i can expect a certain level of objectiveness from you.
Finally RG, I have a bit more than 50 gun camera recordings of German fighters pounding the P-51, and from most of them can be concluded the German fighter (either Bf109 or Fw190) could more than outfly the Mustang.
I repeat, each plane had its strong and weak spots; it was the pilot who in the end, had to know when to attack, when to wait and even when to simply withdraw.
- Status
Users who are viewing this thread
Similar threads
- Locked
