The "best fighter engine in the world"
- Thread starter wuzak
- Start date
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
Shortround6
Major General
Part of the problem when comparing HP built is what rating do you use? all but the first few thousand R-2800s were 2000hp or above engines and the early ones were 1850hp.
Using take-off ratings for the Merlin may do them a disservice but even using max non emergency power puts them at about 2/3rds the power of the R-2800s.
US production figures sometimes figure in spare parts in the HP worth of engines produced per month. Like Nash building 800 R-2800s in one month but being credited with over 1,700,000hp worth of production.
Using take-off ratings for the Merlin may do them a disservice but even using max non emergency power puts them at about 2/3rds the power of the R-2800s.
US production figures sometimes figure in spare parts in the HP worth of engines produced per month. Like Nash building 800 R-2800s in one month but being credited with over 1,700,000hp worth of production.
I excluded the HP in the fairy Battle and Defiant lolYea, in the end it doesn't mean anything, but it's fun to talk numbers!
fastmongrel
1st Sergeant
Don't forget that ripper the Whitley. It didn't so much fly as beat the air into submission.
Reluctant Poster
Tech Sergeant
- 1,637
- Dec 6, 2006
Actually not, they built R-1820s
Reluctant Poster
Tech Sergeant
- 1,637
- Dec 6, 2006
Reluctant Poster
Tech Sergeant
- 1,637
- Dec 6, 2006
Exhibit 8 in the attached document gives the production totals by year up to 1944 for american combat engines. It is also a good read if anyone is interested in the difficulties in applying mass production methods to specialized equipment such as aircraft.
I would give 1st place to the RR Merlin. It served during the entire war. Powered the best fighter (Spitfire), the second best fighter (P51), the best medium bomber (Mosquito), the second best heavy bomber(Lancaster). It had reasonable cost, affordable to most countries, allowing great production. Constantly outperformed the enemy competition by a clear margin
I would give second place to the R2800. It served from 1942 and later. It was very good from the beginning, but became brilliant only in 1944 with the C series. By then then the war had been decided. Also was big and expensive, intended for big and expensive fighters that only America had the resources to mass produce.
I would give 3rd place to the Sabre Napier. Impressive performance , technically innovative, under different circumstances could be the best.
4th the RR Griffon
I find very interesting the design of the Nakajima Homare. Very good power to weight ratio and very small diameter. If raw materials and good fuel were available could be a very competitive unit
I would give second place to the R2800. It served from 1942 and later. It was very good from the beginning, but became brilliant only in 1944 with the C series. By then then the war had been decided. Also was big and expensive, intended for big and expensive fighters that only America had the resources to mass produce.
I would give 3rd place to the Sabre Napier. Impressive performance , technically innovative, under different circumstances could be the best.
4th the RR Griffon
I find very interesting the design of the Nakajima Homare. Very good power to weight ratio and very small diameter. If raw materials and good fuel were available could be a very competitive unit
Shortround6
Major General
Ah, a bit of contradiction there. The Sabre was only suitable for big and expensive fighters. It weighed very close to what a two stage R-2800 did and the R-2800 didn't need coolant and radiators.
I would note that the R-2800 was powering both B-26 bombers and C-46 transports in 1942 and while not fighters the fighters showed in 1943. The "C" series was (during WW II) only used in the P-47M in Europe (about 100 built) and the P-47N in the Pacific and the "C" was also used in the F4U-4, ALL earlier P-47s, F4Us and F6Fs used "B" series engines. If the "B" series R-2800 didn't decide the war in the Pacific it was certainly one of the major players.
The Sabre was technically innovative but until the very last months of the war showed no real advantage over the R-2800, at least in engines that were installed in service aircraft.
Tony Kambic
Airman 1st Class
Quoting from the in-depth book, 'America's Hundred Thousand U.S. Production Fighters of WWII', by Francis Dean ( 1997)', on page 99, "During a 1944 fighter conference at Patuxent River, MD. a large group of service pilots and company test pilots voted on the engine they had the most confidence in, between the R-2800, V-1650, and the V-1710. 79% voted for the Double Wasp, 17% for the Merlin, and 1% for the Allison". Not sure where the remaining 3% went. And of course this is US pilots.
As you see i put the r2800 above the napier. But only because of their operational record. In my opinion, the sabre was technically more interesting and with greater potential. Could be even the best engine , if they had managed to put it in production without all those problems that cost them time.Eventually produced well over 3000hp comfortably. I believe in comparison to the r2800 offered less drag, eventually better power to wait ratio, and better throttle response. It s main shortcoming was that no 2 stage supercharger was available during the war years
Shortround6
Major General
Unfortunately for the Sabre ALL of it's advantages (except less drag) took way too long to bring to fruition. And to this day nobody, outside the government record keepers, knows what a Sabre engine cost. We also don't have (or I don't, references welcome ) of the overhaul life of the Sabre. We know it got better as the war went on.
"Eventually produced well over 3000hp comfortably"
I have no idea one way or the other on the "comfortably" part but the 3000hp Sabre VII didn't fly in a Fury prototype until April 3rd 1946.
Two stage superchargers add weight and bulk which have to be taken into account.
Flight Global does have good article (although a bit rah-rah) on the Sabre VII.
napier sabre | 1945 | 2283 | Flight Archive
I would expect any American magazine to be a bit Rah- Rah for any American engine at the time
Kevin J
Banned
In three of the four theatres of war, the Allison powered fighters were the top scorers for the USAAF. The results are as follows: ETO, Merlin powered Mustang; MTO, Allison powered Lightning; CBI, Allison powered Warhawk; PTO, Allison powered Lightning. Tell me, what fighter produced the highest scoring allied aces in WW2, it was none other than the Allison powered Cobras deployed by the Soviet Union.Of course, at sea, that's a different story, the best engine award must go to the P & W R-2800 that powered the USN Hellcat and the USMC Corsair, closely followed by the R-1830 powered Wildcat and the R-1820 powered Martlet I/IV and FM-2 Wildcat. The Napier Sabre, a niche product, required by the RAF to combat low level raiders.
special ed
2nd Lieutenant
- 5,662
- May 13, 2018
Whoops. Merlin was a Packard.
Kevin J
Banned
Packard built Rolls Royce Merlin, in the UK, Ford built them.
special ed
2nd Lieutenant
- 5,662
- May 13, 2018
T.he point is they were not Allison but were liquid cooled inline V-12s. I suspect all P-51s used Packards except for the orig protos with R-R as they used different mount systems. Other members Know more about the engine differences than I so I'll be quiet.
special ed
2nd Lieutenant
- 5,662
- May 13, 2018
If I remember reading correctly, Ford had to re-draw the design also, as did Packard, so can some of the engine guys tell us if the Ford Merlins were easy interchanges with the Packards. What I read years ago was most Ford production went to bombers and to Canada for their bomber production.
Shortround6
Major General
Ford of England built Merlins.
Ford in the US built R-2800s.
Ford in the US built R-2800s.
special ed
2nd Lieutenant
- 5,662
- May 13, 2018
I had read somewhere Years ago that the Ford truck plant in Germany was never bombed because of Henry Ford's political pull. It was alleged that was why they were able to get back into production quickly post ww2. Can anyone give accurate info.
Kevin J
Banned
I thought Ford Germany got bombed but that US Gov had to pay compensation post war.
