The best fighter of the 1930s (1 Viewer)

[bf109xxl]

No other 1930's fighter can match that.

Polikarpov's lineage I-16 -> I-180 -> I-185 matches perfectly the criterium of the growing potential. The latter was produced even in a small series for front-line tests. The problem of Polikarpov's fighters was rather soviet voluntarism than any performance or technological issues. I-185 was undoubtedly the best soviet fighter in 1942-1943. Even in 1944-1945 it could outperform any other soviet fighter upon the condition of its further development.

 

[Shortround6]

. P-35-P-43-P-47 is a direct lineage.

Is there any part at all that work on P-47 that came from the P-43, aside from fasteners (rivets, screws, nuts. etc?)

It seems like there was a bunch of stuff different and it was not just a scale up job. Yes there is a lot of family resemblance.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Basically if we are looking for the best fighter of 1930s and not a favorite we are looking at fighters that went into service in 1938-39.

It's a long ten years with rapid advances. Nothing from 1930 can compete with 1939. With this in mind we need to look at each year in isolation, or maybe periods of 2 years. For example, fighter aircraft introduced in 1931-32 include the Hawker Fury, Curtiss F11C Goshawk, Polikarpov I-5 and Fiat CR.30.

 

[Vincenzo]

Or we can use "moving best" from 1930 to 1939 start with a 1930 and end with a 1939 fighter

 

[Admiral Beez]

Or we can use "moving best" from 1930 to 1939 start with a 1930 and end with a 1939 fighter

I like it. It takes some Google Foo skills to find them all. Here's a good list to start with List of fighter aircraft - Wikipedia

Attached is my attempt in an Excel file based on the introduction date on each aircraft's Wikipedia page. Everyone, go ahead and download it and add your own.

We may debate if first flight or introduction date is the better to decide on where an aircraft fits on the timeline, but to me introduction date is best. For example, the Focke-Wulf Fw 190 first flew in spring 1939, but did not enter service until summer 1941, which IMO disqualifies the Fw 190 as a "1930s fighter".

 

[drgondog]

Is there any part at all that work on P-47 that came from the P-43, aside from fasteners (rivets, screws, nuts. etc?)

It seems like there was a bunch of stuff different and it was not just a scale up job. Yes there is a lot of family resemblance.

Well, the P-44 was not mentioned but the P-43 and P-44 were definitely in the conceptual food chain to the P-47B. They were essentially re-worked P-43 to adapt to higher gross weight and new R-2800

All had semi elliptical wings, not sure of the airfoil similarities but suspect same or variant of Republic S-3

All had turbosuperchargers

All had Curtiss Electric Constant Speed but 3 blade for P-43, four for P-43/44

P-44 and P-47 powered with P&W R-2800

I guess my vote goes to P35 for no 3 in the 1930s based on the traceable geneology to XP-47J.

 

[Shortround6]

We may debate if first flight or introduction date is the better to decide on where an aircraft fits on the timeline, but to me introduction date is best. For example, the Focke-Wulf Fw 190 first flew in spring 1939, but did not enter service until summer 1941, which IMO disqualifies the Fw 190 as a "1930s fighter".

P-40 gets scratched too. 1st production plane showed up in April 1940 and was delivered to the Army in June of 1940.
You may substitute the P-36 as you see fit.

 

[Shortround6]

Well, the P-44 was not mentioned but the P-43 and P-44 were definitely in the conceptual food chain to the P-47B. They were essentially re-worked P-43 to adapt to higher gross weight and new R-2800

Well the P-47 and P-43 may in conceptual food chain but then so were the Hurricane and Typhoon

All had turbosuperchargers

OK.

P-44 and P-47 powered with P&W R-2800

The P-44 was supposed to be powered by the R-2180, a 14 cylinder engine using the same size cylinders as the R-2800. Most drawing show two guns in the cowl and 2 guns in each wing. Not sure if they ever cut any metal on the P-44.

I guess my vote goes to P35 for no 3 in the 1930s based on the traceable geneology to XP-47J.

Well, if we go back far enough we can trace the genealogy back to the SEV-3, Hey, it has same wingspan and area of the P-35
They cut down the vertical surfaces because without the floats the the surfaces could be smaller.
rear cockpit gave plenty of room for the turbo charger

While you can draw inspiration and knowledge from an early design tracing the actual "design" to plane that was about 1/2 the weight (or less) seems to be on thinner ice.

 

[tomo pauk]

If your critiera is the design with the best growth potential, the P-35 wins, hands down. P-35-P-43-P-47 is a direct lineage. No other 1930's fighter can match that. Compare the 1945 P-47N to the other designs derived from 1930's fighters and no other even comes close. The P-47 was better at everything that was important, capable of longer range, better altitude capability and was even superb at ground attack.

P-47 was a brand new aircraft, not yet another derivative of the P-35 (just like the F8F was a brand new aircraft, not the F6F Lite, let alone a new version of the F4F, or just like the Tempest was not yet another derivative of the Hurricane).
Flag waving notwithstanding.

In contrast, the P-36-P-40 and Hurricane pretty much ran out of steam by 1942, the Spitfire would have been relegated to training had Sir Hooker not come up with the 60 Series Merlin,

P-35 was relegated to training already.
Had not P&W come up with the R-2800, and GE with a suitable turbo for it, we would not have had the P-47.

he USAAC competition that led to procurement of both the P-36 and P-35 was a remarkable acquisition effort. Having two "winners" provided the best USAAF fighters in the short term, equally vital to the Allies, as well as leading to a lineage that was vital in the longer term.

P-35 was not vital to the Allies. Ditto for the P-36; P-40 was very useful, granted.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Let's ask ChatGPT. https://chat.openai.com/

What was the best fighter plane of the 1930s?

The 1930s saw the development of several notable fighter planes, each with its own strengths and capabilities. Determining the "best" fighter plane is subjective and can depend on various factors, including performance, technological innovation, combat record, and the specific criteria being considered. Here are a few fighter planes from the 1930s that are often considered among the best of the era:

1. Supermarine Spitfire (United Kingdom): While the first operational version of the Spitfire, the Mk I, entered service in 1938, it is closely associated with World War II. However, its design roots can be traced back to the mid-1930s. The Spitfire's sleek design, advanced aerodynamics, and powerful engine contributed to its exceptional agility and performance.
2. Messerschmitt Bf 109 (Germany): The Bf 109 was the standard fighter for the German Luftwaffe during World War II, and its early versions were developed in the mid-1930s. It featured a modern monocoque construction and innovative design elements. The Bf 109 was a versatile and effective fighter throughout the war.
3. Curtiss P-36 Hawk (United States): The P-36 Hawk, developed by the Curtiss-Wright Corporation, was an important transitional fighter between the biplane and monoplane eras. It featured retractable landing gear and an enclosed cockpit, marking significant advancements in design.
4. Polikarpov I-16 (Soviet Union): The I-16, known as the "Ishak" or "Rata," was a Soviet fighter with an innovative design for its time, featuring a cantilever monoplane layout, retractable landing gear, and gull-winged design. It was among the world's first low-wing monoplane fighters with retractable landing gear.
5. Hawker Hurricane (United Kingdom): Like the Spitfire, the Hurricane's significance is often associated with World War II. However, it first flew in 1935 and was already in service by the late 1930s. The Hurricane played a crucial role in the early years of the war, particularly during the Battle of Britain.

These fighter planes, along with others from various countries, contributed to the rapid technological advancements in aviation during the 1930s. Each had its own impact and role in shaping the future of aerial combat. The "best" fighter plane depends on the specific context and criteria you're considering.

 

[tonycat77]

Let's say you're argentina or a democractic non aligned hungary or Romania in the 1930s, which plane, politics and contracts aside would serve as the best?
I'd say the best choices are the Spitfire and Bf-109.
He-112, Hurricane and P-36s as distant second places.

 

[Shortround6]

Curtiss P-36 Hawk (United States): The P-36 Hawk, developed by the Curtiss-Wright Corporation, was an important transitional fighter between the biplane and monoplane eras. It featured retractable landing gear and an enclosed cockpit, marking significant advancements in design.

It took too long to get into service. The first production P-36A was delivered to Wright Field in April of 1938. The problems were many and the 4th squadron to get any at all 1938 got theirs in Dec 1938.
Note that this was well after the P-35.
Also lets put things in context.
First Production Spitfire Is left the Factory in June of 1938 and were being issued to Squadron 19 in August 1938. Granted they had the wooden propellers. It also took until Dec 1938 to get the 2nd Squadron (No 66) to start receiving Spitfires.
The Hurricane on the other hand had 4 planes in No 111 Squadron by Christmas of 1937, 3 squadrons equipped by the end of June 1938 and 10 squadrons had received planes by the end of the year and 5 of them were were fully operational.

Polikarpov I-16 (Soviet Union): The I-16, known as the "Ishak" or "Rata," was a Soviet fighter with an innovative design for its time, featuring a cantilever monoplane layout, retractable landing gear, and gull-winged design. It was among the world's first low-wing monoplane fighters with retractable landing gear.

What gull wing design???
The designer tried and either due to political disfavor or poor initial design the I-16 did not influence any later Russian designs except for general configuration.

Hawker Hurricane (United Kingdom): Like the Spitfire, the Hurricane's significance is often associated with World War II. However, it first flew in 1935 and was already in service by the late 1930s. The Hurricane played a crucial role in the early years of the war, particularly during the Battle of Britain.

Kind of covered above.

However please note that the while the I-16 first flew in Dec of 1933 they were not telling anybody about it, Soviets were secretive that way. One prototype in the May1934 flyover didn't revel a whole lot.
The Hawk 75 prototype first flew in May of 1935.
The Hurricane first flew in Nov 1935.

The US doesn't seem to get much credit. Lockheed YP-24

Flying in the summer of 1931. Retracting landing gear, enclosed cockpit, Cantilever wing. Due to economic woes of the time and company bankruptcy it took until Dec 1935 to get the ultimate production version into production. P-30 or PB-2A.

All metal (the YP-24 had wooden wings), retracting landing gear, Cantilever wings, enclosed and heated cockpit, controllable propeller (or constant speed?), turbo charged engine (granted the engine itself did not have a mechanical supercharger). 50 built. Many still flying in 1939.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Let's say you're argentina or a democractic non aligned hungary or Romania in the 1930s, which plane, politics and contracts aside would serve as the best? I'd say the best choices are the Spitfire and Bf-109. He-112, Hurricane and P-36s as distant second places.

Argentina ordered the P-36 with fixed undercarriage. See details here, Curtiss Model H75O

For their needs I think this was a good choice.

 

[Shortround6]

Let's say you're argentina or a democractic non aligned hungary or Romania in the 1930s, which plane, politics and contracts aside would serve as the best?

What can you actually make? Or what can you buy or beg from suppliers?
In the 1930s the Soviet Union was licensing engines left, right and center. The I-16 was pretty much designed around a Licensed Wright R-1820 although the first prototypes flew with Licensed Jupiters as the R-1820s weren't ready yet.

You can pick the best at an air show but the chances of building it the country of choice is 4-6 years away, less you can buy the engines and propellers and all the other "stuff".
Buy or build retracting landing gear?

 

[Shortround6]

Argentina ordered the P-36 with fixed undercarriage. For their needs I think this was a good choice.

Argentina bought at least one demonstrator in 1937. They bought 30 Hawk 75-Os delivered in Nov-Dec 1938 and they took out a license and started making them (20) in 1940 with Curtiss suppling many of the complex components of the aircraft and some of the jigs and tools needed. While the first of the 20 was delivered in Sept 1940 the last was not finished until the end of 1941 with some help from Curtiss.
20 of them were still reported as "combat ready" in June of 1954 by the USAF, make of that what you will.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Argentina bought at least one demonstrator in 1937. They bought 30 Hawk 75-Os delivered in Nov-Dec 1938 and they took out a license and started making them (20) in 1940 with Curtiss suppling many of the complex components of the aircraft and some of the jigs and tools needed. While the first of the 20 was delivered in Sept 1940 the last was not finished until the end of 1941 with some help from Curtiss. 20 of them were still reported as "combat ready" in June of 1954 by the USAF, make of that what you will.

And a large part of my invasion force from several year ago.

Sept 1940, Argentina invades the Falkands!

Without the benefit of hindsight, the best time for Argentina to have taken the Falklands would appear to be Sep-Dec 1940. By this time the British army has been smashed and sent packing at Dunkirk, the Royal Navy has lost both Courageous and Glorious plus is fully occupied in Norway, the Battle...

ww2aircraft.net

 

[gumbyk]

I like the Hawk 75/P-36 too, but rather than just guess or promote our favorites, does anyone have statistics showing which 1930s fighter shot down the most AC before 1 Jan 40?

simply taking which had more victories isn't really that relevant. e.g. The 109 had more opportunities than something like the spitfire, up until 1940, so you'd expect it to have more victories.

 

[marathag]

Let's say you're argentina or a democractic non aligned hungary or Romania in the 1930s, which plane, politics and contracts aside would serve as the best?
I'd say the best choices are the Spitfire and Bf-109.
He-112, Hurricane and P-36s as distant second places.

Curtiss would offer a license for local production for most of their designs, and would fit equipment as desired by the customer.
Open Cockpit, sure, if you want the wind in your face. Canopy recommended.
Fixed Gear, less maintenance. Customer's choice of P&W or Wright engine, instruments, radio and armament

Argentina did buy 30 Hawk 75s, and license to build 100 more locally, but ended up doing 20

one with 20mm wing guns

Bf-109 is great if you want to eliminate a lot of pilots and airframes in accidents

 

[PAT303]

the Spitfire would have been relegated to training had Sir Hooker not come up with the 60 Series Merlin

And the Mustang to ground attack?.

 

[PAT303]

If your critiera is the design with the best growth potential, the P-35 wins, hands down. P-35-P-43-P-47 is a direct lineage. No other 1930's fighter can match that. Compare the 1945 P-47N to the other designs derived from 1930's fighters and no other even comes close. The P-47 was better at everything that was important,

So we are forgetting about all the Spitfires up to the Mk24, all the Seafires up to the Mk47, all the PR Spitfires up to the Mk19 and finally the Spiteful?. The Me109 and Spitfire are tied for first, Hurricane definitely second with the Hawk.