Still not enough mate, you can't fly in a straight line at best economical speed to the target and back it doesn't work that way. We have had a very good discussion on modding the Spitfire as an escort fighter pre P51 and running the numbers the best idea would have been to use them as far as Frankfort, Bremen and Hannover and especially the Ruhr, bomb it to dust, the P47 is in the same boat. The Jug suffers from the law of diminishing returns very quickly, it's a fuel pig and needs lots of it, trouble is the more it carries the more it needs so it's in a no win situation.
"The case for the P-47 Thunderbolt being the greatest fighter of the Second World War "
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Regardless, Republic did not develop any "drop" tanks for the P47 until after the May 1939 directive was rescinded in February 1942.
In other posts responding to other posters, I will shortly be quoting sources detailing the inability of the "B" models from carrying external tanks, unless new "keel" kits were retrofitted in the field.
It was not until the "C" model was introduced that combat capable tanks could be carried ex factory.
According to Greg's video, that was not until after September 1942.
Then it took some time for them to reach combat theatres, so about March/April 1943 before the issue moved beyond "moot".
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Have you watched the video that is the subject of the bulk of the present discussion?
I suggest you listen to the comments on the video @20.20.
It should allay any doubts that you have.
Also, it would seem that you must be unfamiliar with the "N" version, which had extraordinary range.
It carried "lots"(even more than the later "D" versions due to a wider wing with integral tanks), but it was able to negotiate "Pacific" sized distances comfortably.
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Just so that YOU are aware, I have posted a screen shot of my copy of the book "Republic's P47 Thunderbolt From Seversky to Victory" by Warren Bodie.
I decided to get it out of a less accessible part of the house where it sat with all of the other aviation material I own.
As it says "Seversky" in the title, I am sure you will now accept that I knew that there was a change in the company structure/name in 1939.
Or do you need more convincing?
I am sure that most reasonable people will be happy enough with me just using the "Republic" moniker at any point in these discussions.
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The P47 has a 550 mile radius/1100 mile range with all three DT's fitted and that is not enough to get to Berlin at high cruise speed in as well as 15-20 minutes at WEP plus high cruise out while leaving enough reserve, interestingly he backed what I said about the added fuel becoming the law of diminishing returns.
Like the A6M, it had long range over undefended airspace, you also might want to check out it's flight characteristics, loaded with internal fuel, no DT's fitted it's rate of roll, climb rate and overall maneuverability were deemed poor, and we get back to the engine on the test aircraft having serious mechanical issues, excessive to the point of being unable to be used at WEP.
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And I'm just going to say in late 44-45 your up against predominantly cannon armed adversary's, lets use a hypothetical and you tangle with a late war fighter, say a TA152, Mk22 Spitfire, Spiteful Mk14-16, you going to be on the receiving end of 30mm and two 20mm cannons loaded with mine shells, HE/I API or four 20mm Hispano's loaded with SAPI, API, HEI shells, there's no area on the P47N were a hit is not going to strike a fuel tank also remembering they will be full of fuel allowing you to fight and get home, I seriously don't like your chances of surviving even a short one second burst of cannon shells.
Without needing to look it up to verify, I am sure that all internal tanks on the P47 N are self sealing.
It would not have been released for combat with fuel system vulnerabilities.
If you are able to find any verifiable sources dealing with fuel system vulnerabilities, rather than just speculation, please post them.
Of course, there is numerous anecdotal evidence of earlier models of P47(primarily "D" models due to the overwhelming production numbers of this model) returning from combat chock full of holes, with even complete cylinders shot away.
I'm sure you must have read at least some of these.
Here is one such episode that was inflicted on the well known P47 pilot Robert S. Johnson:
P-47 Thunderbolt: Aviation Darwinism
The Republic P-47 Thunderbolt proved to be one of the best performing fighters to see combat in World War Two. Produced in greater numbers than any other U.S. made Fighter, the story of how it came to
[.....]
It was on this mission that Johnson's P-47 is crippled by enemy fire. Refusing to break formation (after being chewed out for doing just that when he gained his first victory) Johnson repeatedly tried to warn his Group of attacking Fw 190's. For some reason, no one heard his frantic radio calls. Johnson's fighter was clobbered by German 20mm cannon shells. The engine was hit, the hydraulic system shot out, spraying Johnson with fluid. His canopy was jammed closed and his oxygen system destroyed. The leaking hydraulic fluid and oxygen came in contact with each other and burst into flame inside the cockpit. Fortunately, it was only a flash fire, but Johnson was properly singed, losing his eyebrows and taking on the appearance of a cooked lobster. Having flown without his goggles (they were being repaired), the mist of hydraulic fluid nearly blinded him and caused swelling that threatened to eliminate what limited vision he retained.
Without oxygen, hypoxia began to cloud Johnson's reasoning. In a panic, he fought to get out of the wrecked P-47. The canopy would not slide back more than a few inches. Jamming his feet against the shot up instrument panel, he pulled with all his considerable strength. No luck, it would not budge. One of the side plexiglass panels had been blown out of the canopy. Johnson tried to squeeze through it, but his parachute snagged. No sense in climbing out unless he brings his chute with him. What to do?
This well known photo shows the bottom portion of Johnson's rudder having been blasted away by 20 mm cannon shells.
While Johnson was struggling with his situation, the P-47 was rapidly descending. As he lost altitude, the effects of hypoxia were wearing off and the cobwebs began to dissipate. Quite suddenly, it dawned on him that the Thunderbolt was actually flying. Upon this realization, Johnson decided to see how far he could nurse it towards the English channel. He eased off the throttle and the Pratt & Whitney radial stopped its shaking. The big fighter answered its controls with authority. Johnson was elated. Maybe, just maybe, he could make it home.
Then he saw it. Sliding in from his left rear, a fighter closes in. But, whose fighter? Then, he recognized it. A beautiful but deadly Fw-190 with a gleaming yellow nose. Flying just off Johnson's wing, the German pilot scans the shot up P-47. Wondering what is going through the German pilot's mind, Johnson watches as he eases away and swings around in a graceful turn; sliding in behind the Thunderbolt. Knowing full well what's to come, Johnson grabs the seat adjuster lever and drops the seat full down where he is afforded the full protection of the armor plate behind the seat. Johnson thinks to himself; "let him shoot, this Thunderbolt can't be hurt any more than it already is." The Fw 190 opens up on the flying wreck. Like hail on a tin roof, 7.92 mm rounds pour into the Jug. What, no 20 mm? Thankfully, these have all been expended in some other fight. Johnson sits, hunkered down behind the armor as the German pilot ripsaws the battered Thunderbolt with hundreds of rounds.
Finally, his anger building, Johnson decides that he must do something. Kicking hard right and left rudder, the big fighter yaws right, then left. This scrubs off speed and caught off guard, the German cannot avoid over-running the P-47. Johnson sees him go by but is unable to see anything through his oil covered windscreen. Shoving his head out through the shattered canopy, Johnson sees the Fw 190 turn gently to the right. Seeing an opportunity, he kicks hard right rudder, skidding the Thunderbolt, Johnson depresses the gun switch button. A stream of tracers heads towards the German fighter. But, it doesn't falter.
Instead, it continues around in a perfect turn and slides in alongside the perforated P-47 once again. Johnson makes eye contact with the German pilot. He can see the dismay on the German's face. There is no way that this American fighter can still be flying. It is impossible that it could absorb such a pounding and keep on flying. The Focke Wulf eases out to the right and slides back into perfect firing position once again. Johnson cowers behind his armor plate as 7.92 mm bullets rain upon the utterly mangled Thunderbolt. Just when Johnson is convinced that it will never stop, he stamps down hard on the rudder pedals again. This time the German expects just such a move and pulls off his throttle. The dappled 190 eases up on Johnson's wing once again, the German pilot shaking his head in silent amazement. They fly this way for several minutes. Finally, the German waves an informal salute and slides in behind Johnson's invulnerable fighter for the third time. As before, the Jug is pounded by streams of lead. The Fw 190 swings gently from left to right, spraying the indestructible P-47 with an incessant barrage of machine gun fire. Suddenly, it stops. The Focke Wulf eases alongside again. The German looks over the Thunderbolt. The pilot stares with a look of admiration on his face. Pulling even with Johnson, the 190 wags its wings in salute and peels away in a climbing turn. Having fired his last rounds at the stubborn Jug, the German heads for home, certainly convinced that the mauled fighter will never make it home.
Another well known photo showing the damage to Johnson's canopy that caused it to jam. The large holes are from 20 mm cannon hits. The smaller holes are mostly from 7.92 mm bullets.
Finally free of the Focke Wulf, Johnson suddenly realizes that during the entire attack, he had depressed his mike button. Releasing the button, the accented voice of an Englishman fills his headphones. "Hello, hello, climb if you can, you're getting very faint". It was Air-Sea Rescue. They had heard the entire fight, including Johnson cursing his tormentor. Johnson's spirit soars, and he responds, "I'll try, but I'm down to less than 1,000 feet". Shouting with joy, he eases back on the stick. Not onl y will the Thunderbolt fly, hot damn, She'll climb! Slowly, Johnson nurses the P-47 up to 8,000 feet. The big fighter hauls herself up, instilling greater confidence in a man who was ready to bail out but a few minutes before. "Blue four, blue four, I have you loud and clear. Steer three-four–five degrees.
"I can't do that mayday control, my compass is shot out" answers Johnson.
The calm British voice issues instructions to "turn slightly right", and continues to provide course corrections until, after 40 minutes Johnson spots the coast of Dover through broken clouds. Directed to an emergency airfield, Johnson circles but cannot spot the sod runway. After checking his fuel, he pushes the mike button;
"Mayday control, this is blue four, I'm ok now. I'm going to fly onto Manston. I'd like to land back at my outfit."
Johnson continues on to Manston. Contacting the tower, he describes his situation. The last test comes as he moves the landing gear lever to the "down" position. Not only does the gear drop and lock, but by some miracle, the tires have not been hit. Easing onto the grass, Johnson has no flaps and no brakes. The big fighter does not slow and is heading towards a row of RAF Spitfires and Typhoons parked at the end of the runway. In desperation, he stomps on the left rudder pedal. The Thunderbolt ground loops and slides backward in between two of the British fighters just like it had been parked there.
Robert Johnson and his crew chief, Pappy Gould, pose in front his new P-47D-5-RE. This fighter was the replacement for his battered and scrapped P-47C. Johnson would name the new fighter "Lucky".
Slowly, Johnson gathers his wits and removing his parachute, squeezes out of the shattered canopy. Once on the ground he realizes the extent of the damage. Not only to the plane, but to himself. A bullet had nicked his nose. His hands were bleeding from the shrapnel of 20 mm shells that exploded in the cockpit. Two 7.92 mm rounds had hit him in his leg. 21 holes from 20 mm shells are counted in the airframe. He quits counting bullet holes when he reaches 100. It seems as if every square foot of the fighter has a hole in it. Somehow, the P-47 had shrugged off the damage and refused to die. Johnson will recover quickly. The Thunderbolt will not. It was scrapped on the spot, very little could be salvaged that was not damaged. [.....]
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P-47 Thunderbolt: Aviation Darwinism
The Republic P-47 Thunderbolt proved to be one of the best performing fighters to see combat in World War Two. Produced in greater numbers than any other U.S. made Fighter, the story of how it came to
I touched on the P47N previously, and commented that you did not seem to know about it, especially the extraordinary range figures obtained.
P-47 Thunderbolt: Aviation Darwinism
The Republic P-47 Thunderbolt proved to be one of the best performing fighters to see combat in World War Two. Produced in greater numbers than any other U.S. made Fighter, the story of how it came to
So much for diminishing returns.
The P-47N has little to do with 1943 as it wasn't introduced until September 1944 and had extended wings to carry even more fuel,
something the earlier P-47 models did not have.
It's also interesting to note that from March 1943 calls were made to Republic to add Pylons and brackets for drop tanks as they were
obviously needed. Alexander Kartveli said they took away from the clean lines of the P-47 and resisted moves to add them, also
calling them ornaments.
So much for following directives.
something the earlier P-47 models did not have.
It's also interesting to note that from March 1943 calls were made to Republic to add Pylons and brackets for drop tanks as they were
obviously needed. Alexander Kartveli said they took away from the clean lines of the P-47 and resisted moves to add them, also
calling them ornaments.
So much for following directives.
Um, I do know that the P47N had extended wings.
I linked to a source that said so, and own the book by Warren Bodie that explains it in some detail on pages 327-336.
I made the post about the P47N as Pat303 said in post #441:
The P47N demonstrates quite clearly that increasing the fuel supply significantly increases the range significantly, hence, no diminishing returns.
At least, not to the extent that he is implying.
And the measures to add "pylons and brackets" was initiated earlier than March 1943.
Greg's video @5.13 places it at an introduced date of September 1942 with the introduction of the "C" model.
The first 171 production "B" models were made without the plumbing for carrying tanks - but I believe could be retrofitted with field modification kits.
Gen. Arnold rescinded his earlier prohibition directive in February 1942, as I have posted earlier.
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Long story short, for the benefit of PBEHN and others, there was not much point developing drop tanks for the early model P47's
BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT PLUMBED FROM THE FACTORY TO ACCEPT EXTERNAL TANKS UNTIL AFTER SEPTEMBER 1942.
If I have time later, I will post the corroborating images from Bodie pp389 and also from:
Bert Kinsey
pp 9-20
P-47 Thunderbolt in detail & scale - D&S Vol. 54
www.freebookspot.club
BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT PLUMBED FROM THE FACTORY TO ACCEPT EXTERNAL TANKS UNTIL AFTER SEPTEMBER 1942.
If I have time later, I will post the corroborating images from Bodie pp389 and also from:
Bert Kinsey
pp 9-20
P-47 Thunderbolt in detail & scale - D&S Vol. 54
P-47 Thunderbolt in detail & scale - D&S Vol. 54 free ebook download.
download P-47 Thunderbolt in detail & scale - D&S Vol. 54, isbn:1888974079, Download pdf
The C model had a central bracket fitted to take a bomb or a ferry tank. The change to this was a pressurised paper drop tank which again
was not a Republic addition. Wing drop tank pylons were not available until the P-47D and then that was in December 1943.
was not a Republic addition. Wing drop tank pylons were not available until the P-47D and then that was in December 1943.
Bodie more accurately refers to it as the "bulged keel line" as per pp 389 of his book.
from Bodie pp391.
P.S. I am the one quoting all the sources.
You might like to do the same.
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What was the internal fuel of the C and D versions? The P-47 used around 100 gals/hr on cruise and 300, galls/hr in combat. So what is your estimation of range after dropping tanks and having 20 minutes combat. Warm up take off and climb also done on internal tanks.
Per Kinsey pps 17-20:
305 gallons internal for "C" and early "D".
"D" - 25 and later increased to 370 gallons internal
I don't need to estimate.
I just refer to Greg's figures in the video, which are based on official AAC documentation.
You can look them up yourself via the video.
That (Sept 1942) is when the P-47 started to arrive in Europe, so what is your point it is11 months before the first raid on Schweinfurt.Long story short, for the benefit of PBEHN and others, there was not much point developing drop tanks for the early model P47's
BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT PLUMBED FROM THE FACTORY TO ACCEPT EXTERNAL TANKS UNTIL AFTER SEPTEMBER 1942.
If I have time later, I will post the corroborating images from Bodie pp389 and also from:
Bert Kinsey
pp 9-20
P-47 Thunderbolt in detail & scale - D&S Vol. 54
P-47 Thunderbolt in detail & scale - D&S Vol. 54 free ebook download.
download P-47 Thunderbolt in detail & scale - D&S Vol. 54, isbn:1888974079, Download pdf
I'm not sure I was making any point, other than that before September 1942 drop tanks were pointless because the P47 was not plumbed to take them.
"Bulged keel line" kits were able(to allow centreline drop tank carriage) to be retro fitted in the field.
Apparently, many were.
The P-47 was not operational until March 1943 and then they were grounded for a month with radio issues, I really dont see what point you are making.
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