"The case for the P-47 Thunderbolt being the greatest fighter of the Second World War "

[Ovod]

The Jug suffers from the law of diminishing returns very quickly, it's a fuel pig and needs lots of it, trouble is the more it carries the more it needs so it's in a no win situation.

That is just as true for any escort version of the Spitfire as it is for the P-47. It's true for all aircraft - you have to burn more fuel to carry more fuel.

 

[EwenS]

Spitfire PR conversions

Mk.I PR Type A (designation given retrospectively when the Mk.I PR Type B appeared)
2 aircraft converted in Oct 1939 - N3069 & N3071. Each given a single 5" focal length camera in place of the ammunition boxes in each wing. Airframe cleaned up, gaps filled etc giving 10-15mph more than standard Mk.I. Painted "Camotint". First mission 18 Nov 1939 from Seclin, near Lille to photograph the Aachen area from 33,000ft.

Mk.I PR Type B (medium range)
First conversion completed 16 Jan 1940. F24 camera with 8" lens in each wing. 29 Imp Gal fuel tank in rear fuselage giving radius of action of 325 miles. First operation 10 Feb 1940 from Debden, Essex to photograph Wilhelmshaven & Emden. One of these was captured in France by the Germans.

Mk.I PR Type C (long range)
First conversion March 1940. 29 gal rear fuselage tank plus a 30 gal blister tank under port wing. A matching blister under the starboard wing held 2xF24 cameras with 8" lenses. At least one later got a bigger oil tank under the chin. First operation 7 April 1940 to Kiel.

Mk.I PR Type E
First version optimised for low level work, possibly only 1 modified (N3117) in June with first mission 7 July 1940. One oblique camera in a bulge under each wing facing out and slightly down.

By July 1940 the Photographic Reconnaissance Unit had 8 Type B, 3 Type C & 1 Type E on its books.

Mk.I PR Type F (super long range)
Arrived July 1940. 30 gal blister tank under each wing, 29 gal fuselage tank, enlarged oil tank under chin, 5 oxygen bottles. Endurance 4.5+hrs. Camera crate in behind cockpit with 2xF24 with 8" lenses, later changed to 2xF8 with 20" lenses. Later still some surviving Type F received a 14" cmera looking to port. Range Type C plus approx 100 miles. Able to reach Berlin under ideal conditions, first achieved 14 March 1941.

All surviving Type B & C were brought up to Type F standard.

Mk.I PR Type D
First version with specially built wings with fuel in the torsion box ahead of the spar. First pair (P9551 & P9552) delivered Oct 1940 having been delayed by the need to build fighters for the BoB. 114 gal of fuel in wings, 29 gal in rear fuselage tank for a total of 228 gals. 14 gal oil tank in port wing. Cameras 2x F24 with 8" or 20" lenses or 2xF8 with 20" lenses. Difficult to handle until fuselage tank emptied. Endurance now over 5 hours. so Stettin, Trondheim Toulon & Marseilles were now in range.

Mk.I PR Type G
Optimised for low level photography. Retained the armament but had rear fuel tank. Oblique mounted F24 with 14" lens in rear fuselage looking to either port or starboard plus 2x vertically mounted F24 (1x5" & 1x14" lens)

In 1941 these models were redesignated as follows (no Type A or B survived by that point):-

Mk.I PR Type C became the PR Mk.III
Mk.I PR Type D became the PR Mk.IV
Mk.I PR Type E became the PR Mk.V
Mk.I PR Type F became the PR Mk.VI
Mk.I PR Type G became the PR Mk.VII

Merlin 45 replaced the original Merlin III in 1941 with no change of designation and cockpit heaters were added.

1942 F52 camera entered service. Magazine for 500 exposures & lenses up to 36". The PR.XI was the first verion able to carry these.

By 1942 No 1 Photographic Reconnaissance Unit had 53 Spitfires (6 flights) & 12 Mosquitos (2 flights) before being broken up into 1 Mosquito and 3 Spitfire PR squadrons (540-543 squadrons).

PR Mk.IX (unofficial designation)
15 Spitfire IX converted from late 1942 as a stopgap until the PR.XI became available. Armament removed, gun ports faired over, extra oil tank under chin and camera rack in rear fuselage. Only additional fuel was from a slipper tank. First delivery at the end of Nov 1942.

PR.XI
Camera installation consisted of 2xF52 with 36" lenses. Some were also fitted with 2xF24 with 5" lenses in small blisters under each wing, to be used if the cloud cover over the target at altitude was bad and it had to be photographed from lower levels. That way the sortie wasn't entirely wasted.

With a 90 gal drop tank the maximum operational radius of a PR.XI was 565 miles based on track climb to 38,000 ft and level out for high speed cruise at 378mph, on track climb to 41,500ft and 4 mins at that altitude to avoid fighters, descend to 38,000ft, spend 25 mins over the target for photography, return at high speed cruise, on track descent for last 100 miles to land with tanks nearly empty. For a flight time of 4 hours 18 minutes.

PR.X
Essentially a PR version of the pressurised Mk.VII fighter. 16 built entering service in May 1944. Apparently not popular because of poor visibility through the thick perspex canopy which had a yellow discolouration.

PR.XIII
Conversions from PR Type G or Spitfire II or V. Low rated Merlin 32. Retained 4x.303MG. Camera installation of the Type G but fuel of a Mk.V. 25 or 26 produced.

 

[EwenS]

BEFORE Eagle squadrons became 4th FG with Spit IX in October 1942 the following US FGs were assigned 8th AF, in-country and flying combat missions:


31st FG (Spit IX) - 29 Aug 42
52nd FG (Spit IX) flew combat misions TDY RAF,but based in UK in July 1942

The 31st & 52nd FG had Spitfire Mk.V while in the UK and on beginning operations in North Africa. They only began to receive some Mk.VIII & IX in Spring 1943 while in North Africa.

On transfer to the USAAF the Eagle squadrons were also mostly flying the Mk.V, only 133 squadron RAF (336th FS USAAF) had begun to receive some Mk.IX in Sept 1942. But I believe it then gave up the Mk.IX at that point.

 

[Dimlee]

Did the bomber mafia steal the Yamamoto mission off the P-47 or was the P-38 chosen because of its longer range?

Off the P-39.

 

[PAT303]

That is just as true for any escort version of the Spitfire as it is for the P-47. It's true for all aircraft - you have to burn more fuel to carry more fuel.

That's right, but look at the consumption figures for the Jug compared to the Spitfire and Mustang, it's double. It's like comparing two 4wd wagons, one a petrol V8 the other a turbo diesel 6, the turbo diesel is always going to use less fuel while driving the same distance.

 

[drgondog]

The 31st & 52nd FG had Spitfire Mk.V while in the UK and on beginning operations in North Africa. They only began to receive some Mk.VIII & IX in Spring 1943 while in North Africa.

On transfer to the USAAF the Eagle squadrons were also mostly flying the Mk.V, only 133 squadron RAF (336th FS USAAF) had begun to receive some Mk.IX in Sept 1942. But I believe it then gave up the Mk.IX at that point.

Eagle Squadron 133 - 336FS/4th had an operational mix leaning to Spit IX in September. 336 Squadron lost 12 MkIX on Sepember 26, 1942 but believe you are correct that the replacements were Spit V's and they carried into P-47 conversion. As 133 Sq didn't become 336FS until a couple of days later I stand corrected.

 

[PAT303]

The one benefit of these threads is the depth of information posted, the groundhog thread is by far the most informative thread on this site and it's all because of the facts needed to disprove opinion.

 

[Ovod]

That's right, but look at the consumption figures for the Jug compared to the Spitfire and Mustang, it's double. It's like comparing two 4wd wagons, one a petrol V8 the other a turbo diesel 6, the turbo diesel is always going to use less fuel while driving the same distance.

Radial engines tend to have a poorer specific fuel consumption figure compared to inline power plants - plus the fact that the P-47 is a much larger and heavier aircraft compared to the Spitfire - although twin-engined fighters such as the P-38 and Mosquito would be even heavier still.

 

[Dimlee]

I was intrigued by my idea of the photo recon P-47.
The idea was (of course) brilliant, I just needed to find some support on the Internet. A quick search revealed nothing interesting. "Damned bomber mafia", I murmured and decided to change the tactics. There is AI and it should be incorruptible and invincible to mafia threats, isn't it?

OK, I called Chat GPT and asked... (My questions are in italics)

Spoiler

P-47 Thunderbolt aircraft. Was it used in a reconnaissance role ever?

Yes, the P-47 Thunderbolt aircraft was used in a reconnaissance role during World War II.

In the European Theater of Operations (ETO), the P-47D-6-RE variant was equipped with cameras and used for photographic reconnaissance missions. These missions were typically flown at high altitudes and involved taking photographs of enemy installations, troop movements, and other strategic targets.
The P-47's speed and high altitude capabilities made it well-suited for reconnaissance missions, as it could quickly fly into and out of enemy territory while minimizing the risk of interception. Additionally, the P-47's robust design and heavy armament made it a formidable opponent against enemy fighters.
Overall, while the primary role of the P-47 Thunderbolt was as a fighter-bomber, its capabilities as a reconnaissance aircraft made it a valuable asset to the Allied forces during World War II.


Could you provide any documented evidence of reconnaissance missions performed by P-47?


Certainly! Here are a few documented examples of P-47 Thunderbolt aircraft being used in reconnaissance roles during World War II:

1. In April 1944, a squadron of P-47D-6-RE aircraft from the 10th Photographic Reconnaissance Group were assigned to fly reconnaissance missions over the Balkans. These missions involved flying at high altitudes and taking photographs of enemy troop movements, installations, and other strategic targets. The P-47s were fitted with K-17 and K-22 cameras for these missions.
2. In June 1944, P-47D-10-RE aircraft from the 7th Photographic Reconnaissance Group were used to fly reconnaissance missions over Normandy in preparation for the D-Day invasion. These missions involved photographing enemy defenses, troop concentrations, and other targets of interest. The P-47s were fitted with F-3 and F-5 cameras for these missions.
3. In October 1944, P-47D-15-RE aircraft from the 67th Tactical Reconnaissance Group were used to fly reconnaissance missions over the Siegfried Line in Germany. These missions involved taking photographs of enemy fortifications, gun emplacements, and other targets of interest. The P-47s were fitted with K-17 and K-22 cameras for these missions.

These are just a few examples of the P-47 Thunderbolt being used in reconnaissance roles during World War II. There are many more instances of the aircraft being used for reconnaissance missions in a variety of theaters and contexts.

Wow, so easy. Now I can start YT channel and earn a lot of money debunking the bomber mafia plots aviation myths!

But still suspicious of the great conspiracy, mafia or not, I decided to check the composition of all three groups mentioned and I found no evidence of P-47. At least, another AI - by Bing said so.
So, I came back to Chat GPT and asked in an angry voice...

Spoiler

I have studied the aircraft composition of the reconnaissance groups you mentioned earlier. I was not able to find ANY evidence of P-47 in those groups. Where did you take your information from?


I apologize for the error in my previous response. Upon further research, I have not been able to find any reliable sources that indicate that the P-47 Thunderbolt was used in reconnaissance roles during World War II.
While the P-47 was primarily used as a fighter-bomber, it is possible that it may have been used for limited reconnaissance missions in certain situations. However, this appears to have been the exception rather than the rule, and the aircraft was not designed or extensively used for reconnaissance purposes.
Again, I apologize for any confusion or misinformation my previous response may have caused. As an AI language model, I strive to provide accurate and helpful information, but I am not perfect and sometimes make mistakes. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

I think I should rethink my YT project... AI ruined my hopes and my brilliant idea of PR Jug.

 

[Sisu]

I was intrigued by my idea of the photo recon P-47.
The idea was (of course) brilliant, I just needed to find some support on the Internet. A quick search revealed nothing interesting. "Damned bomber mafia", I murmured and decided to change the tactics. There is AI and it should be incorruptible and invincible to mafia threats, isn't it?

OK, I called Chat GPT and asked... (My questions are in italics)

Spoiler

P-47 Thunderbolt aircraft. Was it used in a reconnaissance role ever?

Yes, the P-47 Thunderbolt aircraft was used in a reconnaissance role during World War II.

In the European Theater of Operations (ETO), the P-47D-6-RE variant was equipped with cameras and used for photographic reconnaissance missions. These missions were typically flown at high altitudes and involved taking photographs of enemy installations, troop movements, and other strategic targets.
The P-47's speed and high altitude capabilities made it well-suited for reconnaissance missions, as it could quickly fly into and out of enemy territory while minimizing the risk of interception. Additionally, the P-47's robust design and heavy armament made it a formidable opponent against enemy fighters.
Overall, while the primary role of the P-47 Thunderbolt was as a fighter-bomber, its capabilities as a reconnaissance aircraft made it a valuable asset to the Allied forces during World War II.


Could you provide any documented evidence of reconnaissance missions performed by P-47?


Certainly! Here are a few documented examples of P-47 Thunderbolt aircraft being used in reconnaissance roles during World War II:

1. In April 1944, a squadron of P-47D-6-RE aircraft from the 10th Photographic Reconnaissance Group were assigned to fly reconnaissance missions over the Balkans. These missions involved flying at high altitudes and taking photographs of enemy troop movements, installations, and other strategic targets. The P-47s were fitted with K-17 and K-22 cameras for these missions.
2. In June 1944, P-47D-10-RE aircraft from the 7th Photographic Reconnaissance Group were used to fly reconnaissance missions over Normandy in preparation for the D-Day invasion. These missions involved photographing enemy defenses, troop concentrations, and other targets of interest. The P-47s were fitted with F-3 and F-5 cameras for these missions.
3. In October 1944, P-47D-15-RE aircraft from the 67th Tactical Reconnaissance Group were used to fly reconnaissance missions over the Siegfried Line in Germany. These missions involved taking photographs of enemy fortifications, gun emplacements, and other targets of interest. The P-47s were fitted with K-17 and K-22 cameras for these missions.

These are just a few examples of the P-47 Thunderbolt being used in reconnaissance roles during World War II. There are many more instances of the aircraft being used for reconnaissance missions in a variety of theaters and contexts.

Wow, so easy. Now I can start YT channel and earn a lot of money debunking the bomber mafia plots aviation myths!

But still suspicious of the great conspiracy, mafia or not, I decided to check the composition of all three groups mentioned and I found no evidence of P-47. At least, another AI - by Bing said so.
So, I came back to Chat GPT and asked in an angry voice...

Spoiler

I have studied the aircraft composition of the reconnaissance groups you mentioned earlier. I was not able to find ANY evidence of P-47 in those groups. Where did you take your information from?


I apologize for the error in my previous response. Upon further research, I have not been able to find any reliable sources that indicate that the P-47 Thunderbolt was used in reconnaissance roles during World War II.
While the P-47 was primarily used as a fighter-bomber, it is possible that it may have been used for limited reconnaissance missions in certain situations. However, this appears to have been the exception rather than the rule, and the aircraft was not designed or extensively used for reconnaissance purposes.
Again, I apologize for any confusion or misinformation my previous response may have caused. As an AI language model, I strive to provide accurate and helpful information, but I am not perfect and sometimes make mistakes. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

I think I should rethink my YT project... AI ruined my hopes and my brilliant idea of PR Jug.

Dimlee -- If this post is not an April Fools joke and is really what AI gave you, it is both fascinating and horrifying! I can't help thinking about how much potential misinformation and disinformation could be spread by this thing. Combine your AI experience with Wikipedia and what do you have?

 

[WARSPITER]

Combine your AI experience with Wikipedia and what do you have?

Interminable fights on internet forums.

 

[BiffF15]

Why? Republic were at liberty to develop tanks and they chose not to, Rolls Royce decided to develop a whole engine called the PV-12 which was still called the PV-12 when it was installed in a Hawker Hurricane it was known as a Merlin by the time it was installed in a Spitfire. From the Wright Flyer onwards most of the aviation industry started as private ventures along with the engines. The directive is logical for peacetime. I doubt that the use of drop tanks has changed in USA even now. It just isnt a winning argument, since the USA wasnt at war, it had almost no bombers or fighters and certainly no fighters that could escort bombers, why would you want to drop a tank on someones barbeque or kitchen instead of landing with it? What did Republic do after the order was rescinded? Did they install pressurisation systems, put on reinforced hard points, plumbing and develop a self sealing tanks suitable for escort operations in Europe?

BiffF15 What are the present day US regulations for drop tanks. As I understand UK regulations they are only dropped in case of extreme emergency, either to the pilot or the state.

I can't quote the regulations but can talk to the Flight Manuals (USAF calls them the Dash 1) and philosophy.

I have flown 3 aircraft that could jettison fuel tanks and or stores (AT-38B, OV-10A, and the F-15A-D). Each had its limitations and or preferred operating methods.

AT-38B was fairly thrust limited, especially as temp and altitude went up. With stores on the centerline and a engine failure after V1 / Max Abort Speed the jet would have limited engine out climb performance and thus the Engine Failure on Take Off Boldface (Memory Item);
Throttle (s) - Max
Flaps - 60
Attain Airspeed Above SETOS - 10 knots desired (SETOS = Single Eng Take Off Speed)
Stores Jettison If Required

The Last depended on whether you had sufficient climb speed or not. Bottom line was jettison to safely recover the plane.

The OV-10 was similar in that you would jettison in order to have more performance on an engine out approach (the plane couldn't take off SE).

The Eagle had enough power in most takeoff scenarios that the requirement for jettison once immediately airborne was low (F-15A-D). The E model guys takeoff much heavier so they would have a wider envelope than what I experienced. However once airborne, if you had smaller margins, or do to damage, you may need to lighten the load. In the latter case you try to do it over a range or at a designated location designed to prevent harm to anyone on the ground and increase the odds of successfully recovering the goods.

In combat with the Eagle we would jettison the two wing tanks first (3 tanks on board) depending on the tactical situation and plan to have all of them off prior to getting into a merge.

Jettison is done to insure safe recovery of the plane by increasing performance margins or in combat to increase performance or maneuverability.

Cheers,
Biff

 

[PAT303]

Radial engines tend to have a poorer specific fuel consumption figure compared to inline power plants - plus the fact that the P-47 is a much larger and heavier aircraft compared to the Spitfire - although twin-engined fighters such as the P-38 and Mosquito would be even heavier still.

Yep, why the P51 was the principle LR fighter and not the P 47

 

[syscom3]

In 1946, the AAF decided to keep the P51 (till the P-80's were on hand in numbers) and phase out the P47 immediatly. They considered it to be better of the two.

 

[Greg Boeser]

In 1946, the AAF decided to keep the P51 (till the P-80's were on hand in numbers) and phase out the P47 immediatly. They considered it to be better of the two.

Postwar, it makes sense to keep the more economical of the two types. The same reason B-25s as trainers, and A-26s were retained and B-26s were scrapped.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Interminable fights on internet forums.

Jeez, we've never seen that before! The horror of it all.

 

[syscom3]

Postwar, it makes sense to keep the more economical of the two types. The same reason B-25s as trainers, and A-26s were retained and B-26s were scrapped.

The brass looked at the numbers, knew the pros and cons of each. And declared the Mustang the winner. Besides, the 8th AF, full of very wise and seasoned commanders, wanted the Mustang. Not the Thunderbolt. I wonder why.

 

[SaparotRob]

Kickbacks, bribes and threats from a criminal-like conspiracy.

 

[33k in the air]

The (small) problem is solved by converting 475 nautical miles to statute miles = 550.

Except your post explicitly said statute miles (emphasis added):

According to the producer this configuration was available as from November 1943 and provided a range of about 450/475 statute miles (dependent on the figures/settings used in the range charts) - enough to reach Berlin.

So which is it? Was your initial post wrong and incorrectly stated statute miles?

I would also point out 450 nautical miles — the lower bound of the two figures you gave — is still short of Berlin by about 32 miles (450 nautical miles = 518 statute miles).

 

[Deleted member 68059]

P-47 Turbo controls were always a serious issue. Ironically the only people with really suitable control systems
were the only ones without enough Nickel to make reliable turbos (Germany).