The Doolittle Raid....

MIflyer · Aug 20, 2021

They did short field training at Eglin AFB. See the film "30 Sec Over Tokyo."

It was only supposed to be 15 B-25's but a couple of pilots were sent to pick up another airplane and when they got back to Eglin the others had departed. So they followed them, flew all the way to Oakland. When Doolittle saw them he ordered that both they and their airplane be put on board so to maintain security. They picked up a crew from extra personnel aboard the Hornet.

My HS math and mechanical drawing teacher, Horace E. Crouch, was Bomb/Nav on Plane No.10.

A interesting bit of movie trivia, told to me by my next door neighbor. He flew B-25's in the Med and his squadron commander was Ted W. Lawson's Co-pilot. In the film "A Guy Named Joe" they used some of the REAL Doolittle Raiders as extras.

FLYBOYJ · Aug 20, 2021

muskeg13 said:
Either the Martin Maryland or Lockheed Hudson could have executed the mission.

The Hudson was way too slow. The Maryland, maybe. Would have to calculate short field take off distances and see how it compared with the B-25 (if that data was even available)

Something of note - some say that the B-25 "did something it wasn't designed to do." My take, yes and no. The performance parameters needed for the mission was just never tested by the factory (or the AAC) when the aircraft was initially developed. All Doolittle did was to expand the B-25's performance envelope, and as history shows us with great success.

tyrodtom · Aug 20, 2021

Thumpalumpacus said:
Most airfields are set up aligned with the prevailing winds.

And if you can get off in 450' from an airfield that's not adding 27 kts to your headwind, the extra help from the ship's speed will only make the task easier when it comes time to execute the mission..

The local airport I did most of my flying from was aligned with the prevailing winds too.
But about every time I used it there was a about 45 degree crosswind, just my luck, I guess.
No real problem on takeoff though.
Landings could get interesting.

Thumpalumpacus · Aug 20, 2021

tyrodtom said:
The local airport I did most of my flying from was aligned with the prevailing winds too.
But about every time I used it there was a about 45 degree crosswind, just my luck, I guess.
No real problem on takeoff though.
Landings could get interesting.

From my recollection, they weren't practicing landings, as there was no need for it operationally.

Carswell too (where I was stationed) had its runway (35/17) aligned with prevailing winds, and still experienced crosswinds. Watching a MITO crosswind out was something nerving, as a firefighter.

Thumpalumpacus · Aug 20, 2021

MIflyer said:
They did short field training at Eglin AFB. See the film "30 Sec Over Tokyo."

Thanks for the correction, bud -- much appreciated.

Thumpalumpacus · Aug 20, 2021

FLYBOYJ said:
All Doolittle did was to expand the B-25's performance envelope, and as history shows us with great success.

He had a habit of doing that! I bet he could fly a brick through a storm.

SaparotRob · Aug 20, 2021

Thumpalumpacus said:
He had a habit of doing that! I bet he could fly a brick through a storm.

$20 on Col. Doolittle.

Thumpalumpacus · Aug 20, 2021

SaparotRob said:
$20 on Col. Doolittle.

I'll see your $20, raise you $5, and sit back to watch the results. In his own way, Gen Doolittle epitomized Sierra Hotel.

MIflyer · Aug 20, 2021

"All Doolittle did was to expand the B-25's performance envelope, and as history shows us with great success."

I didn't say that.

Thumpalumpacus · Aug 20, 2021

MIflyer said:
"All Doolittle did was to expand the B-25's performance envelope, and as history shows us with great success."

I didn't say that.

I will correct the attribution, and you have my apologies.

tonycat77 · Aug 20, 2021

Always thought it was a miracle they didn't lose their carriers for what was basically a morale booster mission...

GrauGeist · Aug 20, 2021

At that point in time, the Japanese didn't consider any Navy, let alone the USN, to be bold enough to approach the home islands.
And being a morale booster was a by-product of a mission intended to prove the Japanese weren't invinsible and they could be attacked at any time.

And it worked. The Japanese withdrew valuable resources from various theaters to bolster home defense.

FLYBOYJ · Aug 20, 2021

tonycat77 said:
Always thought it was a miracle they didn't lose their carriers for what was basically a morale booster mission...

When Pearl Harbor happened the US got hit over the head with a 2x4. The Doolittle raid put a nail into the heart of the Japanese Empire.

tonycat77 · Aug 20, 2021

GrauGeist said:
At that point in time, the Japanese didn't consider any Navy, let alone the USN, to be bold enough to approach the home islands.
And being a morale booster was a by-product of a mission intended to prove the Japanese weren't invinsible and they could be attacked at any time.

And it worked. The Japanese withdrew valuable resources from various theaters to bolster home defense.

FLYBOYJ said:
When Pearl Harbor happened the US got hit over the head with a 2x4. The Doolittle raid put a nail into the heart of the Japanese Empire.

I understand, however it could had gone over horribly wrong.
Japan lost the war on the 7th of December anyway.

Thumpalumpacus · Aug 20, 2021

tonycat77 said:
Always thought it was a miracle they didn't lose their carriers for what was basically a morale booster mission...

The reason of the mission aside -- and yes, exporting 16 tons of HE was really a light load -- it wasn't terribly risky, insofar as the Pacific is huge and the counteratttacking forces not so much. It was a lot of effort for little tangible return. In a way, it was America's way of saying that surprise works both ways, albeit without such drastic results as at Pearl.

What if Hornet and/or Enterprise were actually available for Coral Sea?

GrauGeist · Aug 20, 2021

tonycat77 said:
I understand, however it could had gone over horribly wrong.

Any operation can (and many times did) go wrong: the IJN attack on Midway, the Dieppe Raid, operation Market Garden just to name a few.

XBe02Drvr · Aug 20, 2021

tyrodtom said:
What good does it do to practice takeoffs on a stationary aircraft carrier sized field, that might or might not be situated right for the wind direction ?

The Navy does, and always has done, FCLP (Field Carrier Landing Practice) before operating off a ship. Naturally, it's understood that the same actual performance numbers won't be achieved ashore as on the boat. That's not the point. The point is to polish the technique in order to be able to achieve the necessary performance on the boat. That goes for takeoffs as well as landings. If your B25 can make a takeoff at mission weight on a calm day at 110% of available deck length, and then on a day with 15 Kts headwind component, do 105%, you're well on your way. A little more polishing, and you ARE on your way. "California here we come!"

XBe02Drvr · Aug 20, 2021

tonycat77 said:
Always thought it was a miracle they didn't lose their carriers for what was basically a morale booster mission...

GrauGeist said:
At that point in time, the Japanese didn't consider any Navy, let alone the USN, to be bold enough to approach the home islands.
And being a morale booster was a by-product of a mission intended to prove the Japanese weren't invinsible and they could be attacked at any time.

And it worked. The Japanese withdrew valuable resources from various theaters to bolster home defense.

GrauGeist said:
Any operation can (and many times did) go wrong: the IJN attack on Midway, the Dieppe Raid, operation Market Garden just to name a few.

The Doolittle raid had the longterm strategic effect of shocking the Japanese into redirecting their plans from cutting the Australia supply lines to discouraging further incursions into home waters by taking Midway. We all know how that turned out.
Did anybody notice that Doolittle's raid occurred on the 167th anniversary of Paul Revere and Billy Dawes' midnight ride through the Massachusetts countryside?

XBe02Drvr · Aug 20, 2021

Thumpalumpacus said:
What if Hornet and/or Enterprise were actually available for Coral Sea?

With Zuikaku and Shokaku patrolling the ocean floor and Lady Lex alive and well, things would look a little different. With no Doolittle there probably would have been no Midway, and probably no Guadalcanal, either. Fighting would probably have been around the Gilberts as the Japanese tried to cut the Australia supply lines. When we did finally tackle Guadalcanal, it would probably have been better fortified and a tougher nut to crack. Who knows? In any case we would have been closer to parity in fleet carriers.

Thumpalumpacus · Aug 20, 2021

XBe02Drvr said:
Did anybody notice that Doolittle's raid occurred on the 167th anniversary of Paul Revere and Billy Dawes' midnight ride through the Massachusetts countryside?

18 April is a signal day in American history, yep. Add in Yamamoto being shot down 18 Apr 43 to the roll-call.

The Doolittle Raid....

Captain

"THE GREAT GAZOO"

Senior Master Sergeant

Lieutenant Colonel

Lieutenant Colonel

Lieutenant Colonel

Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII

Lieutenant Colonel

Captain

Lieutenant Colonel

Airman

Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung

"THE GREAT GAZOO"

Airman

Lieutenant Colonel

Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung

2nd Lieutenant

2nd Lieutenant

2nd Lieutenant

Lieutenant Colonel

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