The Doolittle Raid....
- Thread starter Lucky13
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Was it available then?"De Havilland Mosquito"
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Actually, IMO it "would have" been perfect if it had the TO performance (which it probably did)"De Havilland Mosquito"
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Could they have brought in Winkle Brown as an advisor to Col. Dolittle? That's a Hollywood pairing!
This raid troubles me because it seems we spent a lot in lives and material for one raid compared to how little the Flying Tigers got for seven months of service in China. PR moves are PR moves. I also wonder just how much the 'Tigers influenced Japan's decision to attack Pearl Harbor.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
NONE!
Errr - do some research.
The Flying Tigers 1st mission was AFTER December 7.
"The AVG's first combat mission was on 20 December 1941, when aircraft of the 1st and 2nd squadrons intercepted 10 unescorted Kawasaki Ki-48 "Lily" bombers of the 21st Hikōtai attacking Kunming. The bombers jettisoned their loads before reaching Kunming. Three of the Japanese bombers were shot down near Kunming and a fourth was damaged so severely that it crashed before returning to its airfield at Hanoi. Later, Chinese intelligence intercepted Japanese communications indicating that only 1 out of the 10 bombers ultimately returned to base. Furthermore, the Japanese discontinued their raids on Kunming while the AVG was based there. One P-40 crash-landed; it was salvaged for parts. This mission was one of the earliest American aerial victories in the Pacific War."
Next thing you'll tell us is the AVG fought against Zeros!
Greg Boeser
1st Sergeant
The bombers were supposed to fly on to China where they would be incorporated into the China Air Task Force which would become Chennault's 14th Air Force. They were forced to launch early when the approach to Japan was detected by Japanese picket boats, so could not reach the Chinese bases that had been set up for their arrival. Getting planes to China was a hazardous task. Many an aircraft was lost flying the "Hump". And all supplies had to be flown in by air, severely limiting operations.
My comment was made purely in jest, but, yes, the Mosquito B.IV had entered service by April 1942. Obviously there was no realistic way that Mosquitoes would have been used, let alone considered by the US authorities (unless, like the Lancaster as an atom bomber some vague reference was made in some obscure paper that has yet to be revealed). Performance wise the Mossie quite probably could have done it, but again, we are treading on soft ground regarding the use of the type by the Americans before the British get them.
wuzak
Captain
Certainly there were not many Mosquito B.IVs at that time, and they would have been the series i, of which only 10 were made. The B.IV series ii would only become operational the following month.
May have been able to get a PR.I on loan for the mission, to take-off after the B-25s, photograph the target areas and possibly return to the carrier. It may have needed modification to have a hook to do the last part.
Would getting photographs of the home islands have been worth the effort?
Two of the B-25s carried cameras. How long before US intelligence had the photographs?
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
*IF* you had read upthread, you would have learned this raid was strategic and had nothing, zero, to do with "PR".
It was to prove to the Empire of Japan that they were not invinsible from retribution.
It proved successful in several aspects.
One, the new carrier Ryujo was damaged and had to layover for repairs, delaying it's deployment.
It shook high command, who up to that point, felt that the home islands would never dare be approached by any Navy.
It forced the IJN and IJA to divert much needed resources from various theaters to the home islands for defense.
It altered several planned IJN operations.
Calling it a "PR" stunt is a slap in the face of every single crewmember of the 16 B-25s and the men who made it possible
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Yes, I beleive two were equipped with cameras and were situated either midway or tail end of the flight.
Calling it a "PR" stunt is a slap in the face of every single crewmember of the 16 B-25s and the men who made it possible
It had multiple purposes - PR was certainly one of them. Something that everybody involved would have been well aware of at the time.
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pinehilljoe
Senior Airman
- 674
- May 1, 2016
The Right Plane, at the Right time, with the Right Leadership and Crews.
A newer bio of Doolittle, the author covers the prewar pioneering of Doolittle, advancing aviation.
Amazon product ASIN 1426211562
A newer bio of Doolittle, the author covers the prewar pioneering of Doolittle, advancing aviation.
The Aviators: Eddie Rickenbacker, Jimmy Doolittle, Charles Lindbergh, and the Epic Age of Flight
Amazon product ASIN 1426211562
MIflyer
1st Lieutenant
I am a little surprised that we did not use the Doolittle Raid idea elsewhere. Just think, if we had, say, some cargo ships or oilers fitted with flight decks, sort of predecessors to the baby flat tops, put one or two B-25's or A-20's on board, and at Midway or some of the other battles, launched them and had them make low approaches to the enemy fleet from a different direction to the carrier aircraft, then recover on land. That could have shook things up a bit.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
I know someone would find fault but I think it's a clever idea. USN Cam ships. Cool.
33k in the air
Staff Sergeant
- 1,229
- Jan 31, 2021
The irony being they didn't actually need to launch early.
While Japanese authorities had been made aware of the approaching USN fleet, they were unaware of its unique aircraft complement. They figured the Americans would have to sail much closer before the USN carriers could launch a strike with its short-ranged aircraft.
Of course, the USN commanders had no way of knowing that, so launching early makes sense.
But it's an interesting case of viewing the enemy's abilities and awareness through one's own eyes. It reminds me of how the use of 'Window' by Bomber Command was resisted for so long for fear of revealing the radar-jamming technique to the Germans. The Germans had already come up with their own version of 'Window' and had not used it for the same reason. It never occurred to either that the opposing side might have already figured the technique out.
Clever idea for sure, but has more cracks in it than a dry lake in drought season.
1) After Coral Sea and with the Japanese Midway build up on the horizon, but objective uncertain, you'd never get USN to go along with such a scheme. The limited speed and agility of an embryo jeep carrier would be a drag on the fast carrier task forces, or, if independent, divert already limited escort resources. The alternative would be to send them in unprotected as sacrificial lambs. USN would fight that tooth and nail.
2) You're going to send crews and aircraft into harm's way to make DUMMY RUNS??
3) Or, are you going to expect Army aviators to become torpedo delivery experts on short notice? Remember, those Marauders at Midway were a last ditch innovation in defiance of all doctrine.
4) Retrospectroscope says Midway turned out to be such a chaotic scene that the added confusion of a couple more multi engine bombers would likely fall in the "diminishing returns" category.
5) The ONLY scenario that guarantees any greater benefit than actual history would be if somebody managed to get a first strike hit on Hiryu. What are the chances that a couple more Army bombers would accomplish that when an entire Navy torpedo squadron couldn't? Remember Hiryu was under a localized overcast and hidden from everybody except the scud running Devastators and Zeros that were fighting over her.
6) Retrospectroscope again: A far more effective move would have been to replace CDR Stanhope Ring as Hornet's CAG before sortiing for Midway. If Hornet's dive bombers and fighters had been on scene things would have been different.
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SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Roger that on all points.
Still think Cam ships would have been cool. Totally ridiculous given what's coming down the slipways. I have my "dook" or "superfire" moments.
Growing old is mandatory. Growing up is optional.
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Roger that. Concur.
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Lucky13
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