The Doolittle Raid....

[Lucky13]

Only remember seeing them with 160 gallon external fuel tanks....

 

[Marshall_Stack]

One thing on the Doolittle raid is that there is not much information on what exact damage was caused by the raid. I have heard about the aircraft carrier but other than that they just say minimum damage. I would still like to know more about the damage inflicted from the raid.

Also, isn't the Lexington and Saratoga bigger than the Hornet? Couldn't they have used one of them?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

One thing on the Doolittle raid is that there is not much information on what exact damage was caused by the raid. I have heard about the aircraft carrier but other than that they just say minimum damage. I would still like to know more about the damage inflicted from the raid.

Also, isn't the Lexington and Saratoga bigger than the Hornet? Couldn't they have used one of them?

Aftermath: How the Doolittle Raid Shook Japan

A new look at the celebrated attack reveals a more pervasive impact than once thought

www.historynet.com

 

[SaparotRob]

One thing on the Doolittle raid is that there is not much information on what exact damage was caused by the raid. I have heard about the aircraft carrier but other than that they just say minimum damage. I would still like to know more about the damage inflicted from the raid.

Also, isn't the Lexington and Saratoga bigger than the Hornet? Couldn't they have used one of them?

I'm pretty sure U.S.S. Saratoga was undergoing repair from torpedo damage. U.S.S. Lexington was in the wrong place because of her involvement in several raids around the Solomons. U.S.S. Hornet, being moved from the Atlantic to the Pacific, was in the right place at the right time to pick up USAAF planes and personnel from the U.S.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Also, isn't the Lexington and Saratoga bigger than the Hornet? Couldn't they have used one of them?

The two Lexington class carriers were slightly larger (60 feet longer, 12,000 tons heavier, half a knot faster, and 6 aircraft more powerful) than Hornet, but were not readily available at the time. Saratoga was in drydock and Lexington was prowling the Coral Sea protecting Port Moresby. Besides, Doolittle's planes were already embarked on Hornet, who had ferried them from Alameda, and transferring them to another carrier would have been impossible to do in the requisite secrecy.

 

[DBII]

From my post about the book Douglas B18 and B23, American Forgotten Warriors,
Reasons why the B23 was the first choice: No B25B available. B23 wing span at 97 feet could clear the island but less could be parked on the deck. B23s were expendable. B23 at normal power could clear 50 ft height in 1465 feet. B25B needed 2130 feet. B23 at max bomb load could fly at 172 mph at 30% power at a range of 3600 miles. The B25B at 33% power ran at 200 mph with a max range of 2600 miles. B23 could make the flight armed with full crew and 3 .30 cal and the .50 cal in the tail. And the B23 could have reached the fields in China.

 

[Lucky13]

Weren't USS Yorktown busy as well....or do I remember wrong, Gilbert Islands and Marshall Islands?

 

[Marshall_Stack]

From my post about the book Douglas B18 and B23, American Forgotten Warriors,
Reasons why the B23 was the first choice: No B25B available. B23 wing span at 97 feet could clear the island but less could be parked on the deck. B23s were expendable. B23 at normal power could clear 50 ft height in 1465 feet. B25B needed 2130 feet. B23 at max bomb load could fly at 172 mph at 30% power at a range of 3600 miles. The B25B at 33% power ran at 200 mph with a max range of 2600 miles. B23 could make the flight armed with full crew and 3 .30 cal and the .50 cal in the tail. And the B23 could have reached the fields in China.

Interesting about the range data and comparison to the B-25. It still isn't as cool as the B-25.

 

[DBII]

Interesting about the range data and comparison to the B-25. It still isn't as cool as the B-25.

The B25 is still the family's first choice since a great uncle fly them with the 13 AF.

 

[GrauGeist]

Weren't USS Yorktown busy as well....or do I remember wrong, Gilbert Islands and Marshall Islands?

At the time, the Yorktown was in the Coral Sea.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'm pretty sure U.S.S. Saratoga was undergoing repair from torpedo damage. U.S.S. Lexington was in the wrong place because of her involvement in several raids around the Solomons. U.S.S. Hornet, being moved from the Atlantic to the Pacific, was in the right place at the right time to pick up USAAF planes and personnel from the U.S.

Purt' much this. Lex and Y'town working down south, and Enterprise not having time to get to the Bay Area and load the Army bombers, left Hornet to do the pickup and rdv with the Big E group as escort.

 

[Lucky13]

At the time, the Yorktown was in the Coral Sea.

During the planning for the raid?

 

[GrauGeist]

Yorktown was at Somoa and then the Marshalls in January and then arrived at Pearl early February about the time the Hornet was working with the Doolitle project.
The Wasp, at that time, was enroute to Great Britain and the Ranger was on patrol in the south Atlantic.

The Hornet was the only available option.

 

[wombat40]

I may be wrong about this, but I think it illustrates how a "one off" can be eventually accepted as normal practice. Where I may be wrong is in this - It is my understanding, to lighten the aircraft involved in the raid a lot of the defensive armament was removed, being replaced by lengths of broomstick. Now as I said, I'm not sure if that is correct, but what I can say, in an episode of "QI" a couple of years ago (with Sandi Toksvig taking over from Stephen Fry) Toksvig presented the "interesting fact" that the B-25 ALWAYS had broomsticks instead of actual defensive machine guns, and that statement WAS made. What does that illustrate? Piss poor research I think!!!

 

[don4331]

A typical CVE could hit 24 knots in a brief high speed dash and once or twice hit 28 in a desperation move by running their 440 PSI boilers at 660 for a few minutes. Their sustained cruise speeds were somewhere south of 20 knots. Not good company for a 28-30 knot fast carrier taskforce.

Can we put a CVE and/or DE hitting 28+ kn into the myths busted section of the forum?

The Casablanca class CVEs at Samar had a designed top speed of 19 kn on 9,000 hp from a 5 cylinder Skinner Marine uniflow steam engine operating on steam of 285psi and 577°F. The best I can find is the engines ran round 200-225 rpms.

In order to drive a Casablanca class CVE 28kn, you need >50,000 hp and to run the engine in excess of 350 rpms. Didn't happen - the reciprocating engines wouldn't run that fast, the boilers would develop that much steam. And ships take time to accelerate, so you need more than just a couple minutes - see HMS Glorious.

Even the USS Samuel B. Roberts didn't hit 28+ knots for similar reasons: The DE was designed for 24 kn on 12,000hp. To hit 28.7 kn (speed noted on Wiki), the boilers would need to be producing enough steam for almost 50,000 hp. Sticking a screwdriver in the relief valve and letting pressure go to 50% overload isn't changing the underlying thermodynamics that there wasn't enough steam flow.

 

[pbehn]

I may be wrong about this, but I think it illustrates how a "one off" can be eventually accepted as normal practice. Where I may be wrong is in this - It is my understanding, to lighten the aircraft involved in the raid a lot of the defensive armament was removed, being replaced by lengths of broomstick. Now as I said, I'm not sure if that is correct, but what I can say, in an episode of "QI" a couple of years ago (with Sandi Toksvig taking over from Stephen Fry) Toksvig presented the "interesting fact" that the B-25 ALWAYS had broomsticks instead of actual defensive machine guns, and that statement WAS made. What does that illustrate? Piss poor research I think!!!

It illustrates how QI changed from quite interesting to AB absolute bollocks.

 

[GrauGeist]

I may be wrong about this, but I think it illustrates how a "one off" can be eventually accepted as normal practice. Where I may be wrong is in this - It is my understanding, to lighten the aircraft involved in the raid a lot of the defensive armament was removed, being replaced by lengths of broomstick. Now as I said, I'm not sure if that is correct, but what I can say, in an episode of "QI" a couple of years ago (with Sandi Toksvig taking over from Stephen Fry) Toksvig presented the "interesting fact" that the B-25 ALWAYS had broomsticks instead of actual defensive machine guns, and that statement WAS made. What does that illustrate? Piss poor research I think!!!

Yeah, the black painted broomstick were placed in the tail, which at that time, did not have a gunner position, either!

 

[MIflyer]

B-25s had a navigator (and work station) and long range radio.

Because of the early launch, only one B-25 crossed the coast of Japan at its correct point. That was Plane No 10, commanded by Joyce and navigated by my High School Teacher, H. E. Crouch.

The standard B-25B weapons fit included a remote controlled belly turret with two .50 cal guns. Those were removed on the Doolittle B-25's to allow extra fuel as well as because experience showed showed you could not hit anything with the damn thing, anyway. Thus the need for the dummy guns sticking out the tail bubble. It is entirely possible, that given the lack of low six o clock protection, more than just the Doolittle B-25's stuck a couple of dummy guns out the tail bubble. I think one book mentioned some units employed a .30 cal gun mounted a Jeep spring sticking out the tail bubble, designed to be turned on remotely to scare off fighters attacking from the tail.

In fact, in the Med some B-25 units installed a tail gun position with two .50 cal guns that looked very much like the ones factory installed on the B-25H and B-25J, although a little cruder.

 

[GrauGeist]

Because of the early launch, only one B-25 crossed the coast of Japan at its correct point. That was Plane No 10, commanded by Joyce and navigated by my High School Teacher, H. E. Crouch.

The standard B-25B weapons fit included a remote controlled belly turret with two .50 cal guns. Those were removed on the Doolittle B-25's to allow extra fuel as well as because experience showed showed you could not hit anything with the damn thing, anyway. Thus the need for the dummy guns sticking out the tail bubble. It is entirely possible, that given the lack of low six o clock protection, more than just the Doolittle B-25's stuck a couple of dummy guns out the tail bubble. I think one book mentioned some units employed a .30 cal gun mounted a Jeep spring sticking out the tail bubble, designed to be turned on remotely to scare off fighters attacking from the tail.

In fact, in the Med some B-25 units installed a tail gun position with two .50 cal guns that looked very much like the ones factory installed on the B-25H and B-25J, although a little cruder.

I beleive Paul has some photos of the various "field built" rear arrangements in the "B-25 Weapons Thread".

 

[33k in the air]

The standard B-25B weapons fit included a remote controlled belly turret with two .50 cal guns. Those were removed on the Doolittle B-25's to allow extra fuel as well as because experience showed showed you could not hit anything with the damn thing, anyway.

Interestingly, British-operated Mitchells retained those under-turrets.